Esther Kim on Navigating Finances and Public Education in the Climate Crisis
Interview by Harriet Kim
Audio Edited by giant doma
Illustration by Harriet Kim
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Esther and I recorded our interview in Toronto, Canada, at the end of February 2020. Listening to this interview in the weeks and months after Toronto started to shut down in mid-March, I see it as an important benchmark—at the time, it was hard to fathom just how much and how quickly life in this city and this country would change shortly thereafter. The ways we teach and learn. The ways we are able (or not able) to shelter in place and pay for it, to work and do it safely, and even ways to commute. The ways we show affection and practice care individually and collectively. The ways we practice "environmental sustainability" in our day-to-day lives.
At the same time, there is also much that has not changed. This pandemic overturned the ways many of us lived our lives as we knew it, but more than that, it has magnified the intense realities of the many challenges people face. I think about the continued lack of real systemic change in the work of climate justice for surface level wins. I think about the accommodations (or the lack thereof) for peoples with disabilities and how often it gets pushed out as an afterthought, and admittedly, you will hear some of that in the interview. It feels just as impossible now to think about going back to “normal” (whatever that means) as it did to predict this pandemic’s trajectory in February. Reflecting on this interview, it reminds me how much the conversations around the climate crisis and accommodation for people with disabilities need to change and how much more we can do. |
Transcript:
Harriet Kim (HK): Hey, this is Harriet from choa magazine. If I can start off with giving some broad brush strokes of what this conversation will be like. Today, I’m joined by Esther Kim, who is a financial advisor, an educator, and a wellness advocate. We are going to talk about what it means to exist and move through some of the intersections of finances, public education, and the climate crisis. And I want to acknowledge that there are a lot of different experiences when it comes to existing in this space and with what’s going on currently, I want to acknowledge that there are a lot of land defenders in Wet’suwet’en and across Canada who are doing the hard work when it comes to some of these intersections, in fighting climate change and fighting mass profits. And I also want to say that we asked Esther to join us today to speak from her own experiences and so, she, of course, speaks for herself and does not speak on behalf of all financial advisors or educators. So yeah, with that said, I want to welcome Esther. Thank you for joining us today.
Esther Kim (EK): Thank you, Harriet. It’s a pleasure and privilege to be here.
HK: We are speaking in Toronto, Canada, where we on the traditional territories of many nations including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples that is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit, and Métis.
Yeah, I’ll go right into the first question. Esther, can I ask you what does an average workday or work week look like for you?
EK: Sure, no problem. So, for myself, during the weekday, I’m a teacher at a public school with our local school board. I run a financial service and education and brokerage services so on weekday evenings, I’m either at the office or out on the field helping families with their financial planning or running financial literacy seminars, depending on what’s going on my calendar. And then weekends as well, I’m at office and then depending on client appointments, weekends are usually actually busier because people are off.
HK: What is your relationship to water, whether that is personally or professionally?
EK: So when you first sent me the questions and I saw this question there, I was like wow, in some way it feels like it is such a big question because for me, water for me, I've always recognized it as a finite resource. I actually studied sociology and women’s studies in university. I have a huge conscious awareness around the environment and water. We even studied water and the lack of water and you know, the conflicts that surround it.
I guess it’s a struggle everyday between trying to be responsible, but also being a citizen in a developed country, and you know, sometimes, convenience trumps social responsibility. But I do like what I can. I personally don’t like drinking out of bottled water if I can help it. I prefer the taste of tap water. Even when we have events, I prefer to have jugs of water over, you know, boxes of bottled water that’s available for people. So little things like that I think do matter when it comes to everyday living. I’m very conscious of how much water I’m spending. But at the same time, you know, I do enjoy getting the laundry done and I’ll be honest, I really enjoy getting my dishwasher done, like dishes washed through a machine, rather than me having to do dishwashing all the time. Yeah, it’s a constant internal struggle but I think I do my best in terms of being conscious and aware.
HK: Does this consciousness ever impact the ways that you budget your money and plan for the long-term?
EK: I mean water, or the climate crisis in general, as you can see the world is kind of going very wonky with the climate and that leads to all sorts of natural disasters. And so definitely, when it comes to planning, I make sure to do all risk assessments. So you can see risk in terms of casualty, so home and auto insurance and what not, like property, but there’s also risk assessment when it comes to your own health and your ability to work and so I definitely make sure those areas are covered. Also, I’m conscious of making sure that I have enough money for food, because as you know, groceries have gotten a lot more expensive and a lot of it has to do with, you know, the climate crisis. So budgeting enough for food, and healthy food especially, but then, you know, all these things play into housing as well, like in terms of materials. So as we live in the city, things are becoming very expensive and we’ve talked about this before, somewhere outside of here. It’s something I’m conscious of and even travelling, I’m always very particular about when I travel, or to where, or how I get there. So yeah, it plays out in so many different ways.
HK: Can I ask how this plays in your conversations with family or partners? Obviously we have our individual financial responsibilities but a lot of us have shared responsibilities when it comes to finances, whether that’s dependents or parents or siblings or romantic partners.
EK: So you’re talking about me personally?
HK: Yeah, just generally speaking, how does this consciousness also impact the way you talk about money and plan for money in your relationships?
EK: So right now, in terms of my own family, my parents are in Korea so a lot of our conversations don't happen as frequently as I'd like, in terms of deep financial planning, but that’s because of time difference, and you know, just out of living away from them for so long. For my own personal family experience, the communication hasn't been as frequent as I'd like for it to be. But they are visiting this April and I'm looking forward to that because I am going to sit down with them and talk to them for future planning for our own family. They are no longer young and we gotta make sure everything is in place and I want to make sure that everything is in place while they’re here in Canada.
In terms of my siblings, our conversations, I would say doesn’t necessarily revolve around money in terms of the climate crisis per se. It’s just more everyday planning or thinking of our parents, really, that would be really the point of conversation when it comes to money.
And then for my own romantic partner, it's more about reminding my partner to not be wasteful or let's try to pool our resources when it comes to doing certain things so we’re not wasting water or wasting time or wasting other people's time and resources, right? It’s an ongoing conversation more so with my partner just because that's who I see more regularly. My siblings I don't see as regularly. My parents are completely somewhere else. I hope that answers your question.
HK: Yeah, definitely. Having these conversations are often deeply personal so thank you for sharing. Thinking in more general terms, we shared a report with you about what some experts are saying in regards to the relationship between the threats from the climate crisis with the next financial crisis. You don’t have to make any big predictions but I think in general, it’s hard, or becoming harder, to think about finances, whether that’s individually or systemically, without at least acknowledging how the climate risks are affecting us, in one way or another. You mentioned some of the risks already: the impacts on residential areas from more frequent and more intense natural disasters, and for us in Toronto, we’re seeing this simultaneously with a housing crisis; on our food system across the whole value chain from farming the land to the increased prices of groceries for us as consumers; we’re seeing that on our healthcare system; and more increasingly, on migration in its various forms. What are your general thoughts or expectations for how things might change? You were just saying how it doesn’t necessarily affect your day-to-day conversations about money and I think that’s true for a lot of people, including myself, as well as those who are privileged to not have to think about these things as often. This is not to say we have to or should talk about money or the climate crisis 24/7 but do you think moving forward, people are going to have to factor these risks into our day-to-day conversations about money?
EK: I mean, especially now, I think more so in the news, we’re hearing more about climate change, right? Like especially in today’s day and age, more so, five, ten years ago even, even though the conversation probably started before then.
But in terms of how our everyday conversations goes, I think, there definitely would be more awareness because we're all so inundated by social media and just online sources of news, whether it be real or fake news, but those things, the wider exposure, I guess would be the word, of information, I think will make us naturally talk about those things a bit more. If not directly climate crisis, it would be the effects of it, whether it be due to the cost, the rising cost of housing or food, or for me, the thing that scares me, when our water, if and when, hopefully it doesn’t get to that point, but when the water situation does becomes a crisis even here, I mean it’s already a crisis in other parts of the world, we can acknowledge that for sure, but when we feel it here, I think that’ll be very scary because it’s so close to home. I just imagine situations where whenever you have a scarce resource, human beings may not always act their best and so it could lead to so many different safety concerns as well. I think that to me, for me, it's a conversation I have a lot in my head, if not with other people, but it is something that’s kind of lingering at the back of my head whenever I see the news about climate change. Also just thinking about our demographic overall in North America, but even in Asia, right? We have a lot more elderly people, aging, and that leads to a lot more vulnerable people. So yeah, it’s a tricky balance between having that conversation versus not having it, and then having that conversation with yourself and with others, and putting yourself in a situation where you’re taking care of yourself and your own finances, but also being able to contribute or help others. I think it’s a constant tug of war, if that makes any sense.
HK: Hmm I was thinking about this earlier, how...when it comes to things like climate change and finances and education we’ll talk about a little bit later, of course these are all things are very broad topics, but I think about how these things almost function in the same way in my body, like in terms of my physical reactions to these things. Like if I am feeling very anxious one day, like my body’s reaction feels kind of the same when thinking about, “Am I doing enough with my finances?” or “Am I doing enough to take care of the Earth?” and I do think about how both of these things have to hold a space in my head where I have to think about myself today but how much room do I have to think about what I can imagine and how I can imagine it 10 years, 20 years, 50 years down the line and that is such a hard thing to do, let alone with other people so yeah, I definitely feel that a lot.
Can I ask what kind of people generally do you work with? Are they young people, are they families, are they older people?
EK: You mean client-wise, right?
HK: Yeah.
EK: Yeah, actually, it’s a good mix. we’re talking about different walks of life, different ethnicities, different occupations, mostly middle market individuals and families.
HK: Sorry, when you say middle market, do you mean middle income?
EK: Yes, so the financial services industry, generally, is aside from the banks, but even the banks, beyond the retail level of the banks, really the ones who get the phone calls those who have a lot of money in their bank accounts, right? For everyone else who is more of the middle income earner, you only know the banks to do everything with the banks but really they might be the best place for you to put your money at. That’s why I do enjoy working with the middle market family because often I’m able to help them and educate them about what’s out there and how the Canadian system works with where to put our money. And also teaching them basic financial concepts because we don’t get financial literacy in school. Or at least, that wasn’t the case for me and I know for a lot of people as well. I was born and raised in Canada for the most part. And I’m currently a public school teacher so I don’t see, still, a lot of financial literacy being taught. So whether I'm at school or whether sitting down with an individual or family, I constantly feel like I'm teaching different things. When I’m sitting down with families, it’s definitely going over basic financial concepts. There aren't a lot you have to master but if you can understand some, then that already can be very powerful. It’s just a matter of implementing and knowing what’s out there. So that’s where I can help in terms of providing awareness about what’s out there.
But I find that the middle market is often the market that is left behind from the financial services industry. Even if it’s not a middle income earner, even if it's a high earner, someone who is self-employed, a business owner, even a dentist or a lawyer, often they don’t understand the whole financial system as a whole. Even teachers, you’d be surprised how much teachers don’t know anything about their finances, partly because there’s a pension fund for teachers, as opposed to putting away for RRSP (Registered Retirement Savings Plan).
So yeah, I work with a very diverse group. I guess the planning really comes down to what their goals are and what their situation is. And there can be some cultural aspects to that, as well.
HK: In terms of the sort of challenges or kind of awareness people might have in thinking of the climate impacts, or the climate risks, in their financial decisions, do you get a lot of people bringing that up when they come to you?
EK: Climate Risks?
HK: Yeah, like the ones we kind of talked about earlier, like is my home safe when wildfires hit? Is that part of my insurance, kind of thing? Do you get a lot of people concerned about that sort of thing?
EK: Not so much about wildfires. I think people, if anything, are concerned about health emergencies. Maybe, I guess in Toronto, I guess we’re a bit more comfortable or cushioned off from all the natural disasters, thankfully. With that being said, what we do see a lot more of is a lot of illnesses at a younger age, or so and so being hit with this and that. For clients I work with, a lot of the time, the emergency piece is a lot more around health emergencies rather than casualty, disastrous sort of situations. The other factor would be more around long-term care, as well, more so around wildfires.
HK: I see. I guess wildfires, that was the first thing that came to my mind but I guess in Toronto, we’re more affected by kind of flash flooding but I don’t know if that’s a concern. I guess, I keep going back to insurance but that’s just one example of what could possibly happen.
EK: That aside, I do have clients, not all, but a handful that do ask the questions of when they invest in what are funds, what are they supporting? I do have some people who are asking those questions, surprisingly not as much as I’d like, personally. But definitely, I think the conversation is going to happen even more moving forward. But I do have some friends who are definitely more socially aware and do ask those questions. In which case, I talk to them that there are certain companies that have a socially responsible investing type of funds but not all companies necessarily have that or have a wide range of it so yeah, that conversation does happen time-to-time.
HK: I want to talk a bit more about that but I’m going to put that on hold for a minute because you also brought up the cultural aspect of it. I want to ask you if...so I think of Korean parents. I want to say around the 50 to 60-ish age range, where they have these, what I call “social banks,” I’m not sure if that’s an actual phenomenon. It’s not something I know a lot about or really understand as someone who is just noticing it. I say “social banks,” but I really mean this sort of informal, casual system of borrowing and lending money systems. I don’t know how much of that is to strengthen community bonds, and how much of that is a necessity for racialized communities and being underserved by mainstream financial industry. But I do imagine that is a sort of a universal thing among racialized communities in general, not just the Korean community specifically. But I do wonder if these kinds of community-based or sociocultural relationships to money factor into your work with clients, and maybe more specifically older clients?
EK: So when you bring that up, I also remember times growing up when we would have another Korean woman, not necessarily a friend, a family friend, but someone that would come over and I would see her and my mom counting money and it brought up memories of that. I do agree with you, it may have been out of a necessity at a time, especially for our parents, who are immigrants coming in with a language barrier and whatnot. I find now, currently with the clients I work with that are immigrants or couples generations in, I find that the principles of group economics, is what I'll call it, is not necessarily there when it comes to lending or borrowing per se because I think most people now are able to access the banks because we have branches that are completely in Korean at Yonge and Finch if you go there. But I do think how group economics does play a factor is when, you know, people or families share the same homes or buy homes together, right? Whether it be to leverage each other’s credit because now housing prices are so much or it is because within the Korean culture, we have that expectations to be living with our grandparents or caring for our parents as they get older so I see it being played out in that sense in the terms of insurance and retirement and long-term care, not so much in lending piece, for myself personally anyway.
HK: Before we got onto the conversation about the cultural aspect, you mentioned that there are some people who come to you with questions about socially responsible investing. I want to talk a little bit about making socially responsible decisions that are aligned with our values, and specifically decisions that might be in tension with other values that we hold and/or might be in the context of big corporate power. I’ll give you an example. I bank with CIBC and I went to McGill, which are both big institutional players in our society and both have relationships with fossil fuels, which not everyone may know about. There’s a big movement from the ground up that is pushing for fossil fuel divestment, including by these two institutions. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with this but I am someone is in the camp of wanting these institutions, and beyond, to divest and I am also someone who talks pretty openly, I’d say, against fossil fuels but admittedly, something that maybe I don’t talk enough about is how I am also someone who benefits greatly/gains a lot of value from having graduated from this school – and I mean that both professionally and personally – and from continuing to bank with CIBC, in terms of convenience, longevity, etc. I think a lot of us carry these kinds of opposing or contradicting truths, especially like I said in the context of these sorts of big corporate powers that you can’t necessarily go head-to-head with, so how do you go about these mindful financial decisions in these kinds of situations?
EK: Again, it comes to that tug-of-war thing again, right? Where you’re a citizen of a capitalist society, participating in certain things and investing in certain areas, and you as an individual, sometimes you feel small or limited in terms of your choices. But at the same time, I wouldn't take the power away from one person either because your money speaks a lot. Where you put your money really speaks volumes for companies, right? At the end of the day, you can vote with your money. I think it’s just a matter of doing a bit more research if you’re interested in spending so that it aligns with your values, but of course, you can’t research everything that you eat and even work and all the environment around you, but I think it is a fine balance of trying, if you are the type to want to align your values to where you spend your money. It’s going to be a constant tug-of-war because you care. I think it’s always easier to be ignorant but that’s no excuse either, right? Especially when things are so urgent at this point in time.
What I would say, going back to the individual power, a lot of it, if you’re just constantly trying to survive, you can’t really make huge positive change beyond your community. I mean you can, and people have, but overall, you always want to put the oxygen mask on yourself and have certain things going for you so that you can help others without worrying about your own situation, rather than digging yourself a hole. So when I think about individuals and what they can do, little things I can think about is, if you know certain companies are doing certain things, whether to animals or the environment, you really don’t have to spend your money there. It can speak volumes. However, I would also encourage more people not to just be consumer. Be an investor. Look for these companies that are doing great things and find out if you can invest in them.
The SRI, the socially responsible investments funds, are more mutual funds so a pooled basket of companies but you can invest in company’s shares, stocks, if you do your own research as to what companies are doing good. That would probably be the best way to invest because socially responsible companies eventually do better, and more and more in the future, they will do better, even more so than now. I think initially, when the idea of being socially responsible and conscious came up, the market was a little...they kind of dismissed it and didn’t see the link, but I think more and more companies are seeing that consumers want that. And so as consumers, if you demand certain things, you can eventually create change. Again, not just being a consumer, but also looking at being an investor and really speaking with your money in terms of how you spend it that way. But also as I talk about increasing your own situation, elevating your own situation financially, it comes down to increasing your own level of financial literacy for yourself. I think part of the challenge to that could be that we live in such an information era and you can get so much information online and it can be overwhelming so that’s where you want to find an advisor, if you can, or someone who can guide you through that. Along with increasing financial literacy, I also think building sustainable habits is another thing you do and that I don't take power from. At the end of the day, we are human beings, creatures of habits. If your habits are destructive, maybe not on a large scale, it’s just little things here and there, maybe buying Tim Hortons everyday and throwing away cups that are supposedly recyclable but they’re not (laughs). Things like that, little things like that, they do eventually compound in terms of the overall effects of climate change and just waste and all that. I always...I don’t know if you’re aware of the compounding effect, whether it be interest or habits, but everyday, little habits might not seem like much but just like a hockey stick, towards the end, it kind of swerves up, that hook, and it’s very sudden. Everyday, small little negative or positive habits can eventually cause dramatic negative or positive consequences, and that's how I see us in terms of human and our habits, along with how we invest our money. I don’t know if that makes sense, but I’m trying to draw a picture for you visually.
HK: Yeah that makes sense. I think about how important these small habits are and building up the good ones. I wanted to ask you, do you think we also have a responsibility, in addition to taking these small steps, taking on the question of how do we keep these, for example, bigger corporations accountable for setting these things up in the first place? We mentioned the example of Tim Hortons, so how do we keep Tim Hortons, for example, accountable for even producing disposable coffee cups in the first place? I’m sure there are a thousand things to fill in that example but for example that.
EK: Well, like I said, I think our money speaks volume so if we stop going to Tim Hortons and make it very vocal that that’s the reason why, I think Tim Hortons will go out of their way to make some changes. I don’t know if it’ll be immediate, but if it hurts them in their books, I think most companies will feel the incentive to change. But at the end of the day, a company is all about profits so it has to make sense to them cost-wise, too. But if it’s not like a mom and pop shop, we’re talking about Tim Hortons, I do think they probably could wiggle some...make some room in their budget to make some changes here and there, personally. But I don’t work there, I don’t look at their statements so I wouldn’t know but I do think we can, I don’t want to say the word shaming, but I think we can call them out for certain things for sure, and I think we have a lot of channels and avenues to do so, such as social media or through stories, or whatever the case may be.
HK: I guess speaking of social media and also you mention this culture of information overload, with the Internet and social media and the sort of news cycle that we have on 24/7. I think about what’s going on in Ontario right now with the education cuts and also the IPCC...C? Did I say 3 c’s?
EK: (laughs) Yes...CCC...yes.
HK: Anyway, they (The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) came out with that report a couple of years ago, saying that, now in 2020, we now only have about 10 years before the impacts of global warming are supposed to be irreversible unless we do something about it. So I think about all the young people now that are in school, especially in the high school age range because that seems like such a tender age for this...where you’re old enough to be conscious of the impacts of it on their futures but young enough to not necessarily be sure of what you can do. It does seem they are having to grapple more deeply with existential questions like ‘Can I afford to go to school and does it even matter if the world is on fire by the time I graduate?’ That’s not to say previous generations didn’t feel a similar sort of worry about their futures. Again, I do think part of it is being able to physically see it through social media or the Internet but I want to ask what are your impressions of how students are feeling in regards to these kinds of questions and how are they dealing with these pressures?
EK: For me, the school that I work at is a little different. I work at a special needs school, so I don’t want to say that my students don’t fully understand the grasp or the gravity of the situation that you see on the news. But they’re probably a couple steps further out in terms of it being in their consciousness, you know, or their day-to-day anyway, even if we have the news playing in the foyer kind of thing. But I’ve tried to put myself in the shoes of young ones today and I definitely do feel like the younger generation is dealing with bigger questions than even my generation over 10 years ago had to deal with – actually it’s closer to 20 years ago now, I’m revealing my age (laughs).
I think about it and yeah, for sure, it’s gotta be daunting when the news is constantly talking about climate change, nevermind this report, but there are many other sources that kind of mention sort of the same thing--we only have a few years to make it right before it’s irreversible. I can only imagine. Being a teacher in a special needs school, I’m in a little bit of a bubble but when I talk to teachers who are in academic schools or other types of schools, alternative schools or whatnot, there is definitely more of an engagement I would say from students. I think more so than my time really, which is a positive, the fact that young people can be engaged with real world issues. I think at the end of the day, that’s the job of a public education system, to make young folks ask questions, to think critically, and to connect the dots, right? So, what I have seen, though, is definitely an increase in terms of a mental health sort of crisis as we may even call it. I don't know if they necessarily come from climate change per se, for my guys anyway, my students that I work with. I think it’s just a different world that people are growing up in right now with social media, going back to that, and going back to having instant Internet connection but at the same time, feeling so disconnected when it comes to dealing with people. I think more people have trouble just holding conversations, not just the young folks. I’m talking about adults. More and more people are attached to their phones and don’t know how to be around silence with others or in conversation with others. It’s definitely a different world I can attest to as a teacher in the system, as well. Financially or when it comes to the global warming piece, I don’t necessarily see it on the day-to-day with my guys but I’m sure it’s definitely everywhere, in all the social studies classes, even, for the regular schools.
HK: So I know you’ve been working as a teacher, is it 10 years now?
EK: Yeah 10 years.
HK: Have you been with special needs the entire time?
EK: No, well, probably a good half, more than 5 years, with the special needs population. I'm currently at a special needs school, which is all special needs, but I’ve also worked at other schools with the special needs population. And I’ve also worked with students that have been homeschooled, alternative schools, tech schools, academic schools.
HK: I think that’s actually a piece of the conversation that I find often gets missed, and also it wasn’t even something I thought of to think about questions about in terms of the disability vs ability...okay, I don’t mean to make it such a binary this or that, but I think when talking about special needs, I think your experiences with ability levels, and how that is accommodated in our world, in our system, in our city, is seems like it’s often overlooked.
EK: Oh, oh yeah.
HK: So I’m assuming it’s not just whether or not your students are thinking about the issues of the climate crisis. I'm sure they have parents or other loved ones that are thinking about a world that is already not very accommodating, let alone in the future, how is my kid going to do when, again, different natural disasters are happening? Is there going to be a world that is able to accommodate my kid in whatever needs that they need to be met? So I’m wondering do you ever talk to parents about these challenges? Do they ever bring it up?
EK: Not so much in terms of climate change per se, but definitely it’s not only with parents, it’s also amongst teacher and staff, support staff, principal. We’re constantly trying to figure out what we can do to best support them while we have them, but how do we also help transition them out to a place where they are valued but they can also feel like they’re contributing. Honestly, it’s such a big, big--personally speaking--I think it’s a big challenge, just because it’s constantly on my mind when I’m at work.
Actually let me backtrack. Going back to the whole “not so much of the consciousness being there.” I gotta say, a lot of my students, their parents, they have family overseas and of course, there are so many things happening around the world. And yeah, it would affect, and could or has, affected students’ families, whether directly or indirectly, because our students are from everywhere. Even though I'm not having the conversations with my students per se, I'm sure it’s being impacting on many different levels for the families, whether I hear about it, or not, is a whole other thing. I just want to mention that, I don't want to neglect that whole piece.
However, going back to your question, it is a big concern piece for me and it is one of my life projects is to build something in the future where I can eventually hire my students that have graduated to help the project I have in mind which I won't say here, but if anyone ever wants to take me out to coffee, I’d be happy to share. It’s definitely constantly on our minds when we do our day-to-day work. I can only imagine the amount of anxiety and fear that parents would be feeling, take away the climate change piece, just planning for a student who may need additional help that sometimes families can’t even accommodate, right? It’s one that really...yeah, you can tell by my face that it weighs really heavy on me and the people that I work with but it’s also a joy to be working with them on a day-to-day level. And you know, going back to the ability piece, just to be specific, I work with students with mild intellectual disabilities (MID) and developmentally delayed and throughout those two populations, we have autism sprinkled all around. It can be a challenging group, but you know, everyone within the school has their own ability, as well. Sometimes they’re outstanding in their ability, so it depends on how we see it.
HK: I guess I have a question that is kind of a two part sort of question. The first part is, you mention that this is on the minds of you and your colleagues, I wonder how you sort of interact with your colleagues about this? I understand there are a lot of challenges that you need to be thinking about but I do want to bring it back to the climate change piece just because that’s kind of the context that we are doing this volume so I want to ask about that. The other thing is that so much of that seems to be unfairly a big burden on teachers. It does seem to me that so much more needs to be done on the part of the general public or like our policymakers or...just everyone in our society basically. Are there things you think that we as a general public can do to support the kind of work that you’re doing with your students?
EK: Hmm, I’m just trying to give an answer with the climate change piece in mind. It’s such a... it’s a big problem and a big challenge to tackle. And I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s not something that only teachers can do to fix this problem, to educate, and create awareness. I think it has to be coming from a mass conscious level, and I think we’re getting there because the urgency, the sense of urgency, is getting greater at this point.
I think in terms of, maybe the first step really is just a change in how we view people with different abilities. I think maybe that’s the easiest thing, the first thing we can do really is changing our perception when it comes to people of different abilities. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, people just want to be seen as people, and be treated as people, and valued as people. It’s so easy when we, especially if it’s a physical disability, for us to make certain preconceived judgements. But my stance, because it’s more of an intellectual disability, even though some have physical challenges, sometimes it’s not as...sometimes you can have a conversation with them and not even realize that they have a mild intellectual disability until you’re talking more in-depth type of conversation and then you realize it’s going way over their heads. When it comes to students like that and when they become adults...I guess my biggest fear for them really is when they go out into society, first of all, will they be treated with dignity and respect, not just from everyday people but I guess my other big concern is from law enforcement, right? Because they’re not always the best when it comes to making judgement calls--that’s part of their challenge, right? So if they make decisions that might not be best for them, or impulsive decisions, and just because they happen to be of this class, or this race, or this ethnicity and background, or this religion even, would they, could they be treated in a certain way? Yeah, for sure it happens all the time, even in Toronto. We’re one of the most multicultural cities but we see it all the time. I see it all the time, and I’ve experienced it too as an able-bodied person, right? I think to me that is one of the biggest concerns – the safety concern when they leave the school because they’re not going to the accommodations that they’re getting in the school out in society. Going back to your question as to what we can do, changing your perspective and seeing them as people, your brother, your sister, whatever, your son, daughter, however you want to see it. But also being able to, maybe do your part in terms of advocating for them if they’re not able to advocate for themselves in certain situations, if it’s not at the law making policy level but in certain situations on the subway, if you can understand, oh this person needs help or needs someone to voice for their sake because they’re not able. I think that’s with any vulnerable population, though, right?
HK: Right...I wonder...so I actually don’t know what the sort of classroom structure or class schedule is like, but do you...so as someone who is able-bodied and doesn’t have any intellectual disability...I’m having a bit of trouble actually wording this question...how do I talk about this? So I have really no sense of what sort of the like, is it similar to I guess able-bodied classes in terms of curriculum, can you go over the curriculum at a special needs school?
EK: I can only speak for my experience with my school and how it operates. So none of the students at my school get credits and a high school diploma. The way we’ve structured the classes is really based on the student's need or their ability. We may have one class that’s... what we say is a bit more fragile in terms of physical ability because they're in a wheelchair or they require a nurse or an oxygen mask, right? That might be one class where that homeroom teacher has to cater to that. Then we have students who are more sensory so they have to be constantly moving so that teacher has to constantly work around building a curriculum for them that involves constant movement. It really depends on who you get. For me, it really depends on the class as well, whether it’s working with DD (developmental disability) or MID population. I always have to meet them first and build the curriculum around certain parameters of course. But it’s sad to say, there isn’t a lot of support when it comes to the curriculum piece for special needs in our public education, which sucks when it comes to the support piece but in some ways, we can be more creative and innovative in spite of that…I hope that answers your question.
HK: Yeah, that totally answers my question. I was just thinking and want to say that I’m sorry ableist bullshit came with the wording of that question and generally as we talk about public education and special needs. It definitely goes to show how little different needs are thought of by the general public, and of course that includes myself, so that’s good to know. I did have a question about programs that are outdoor or environmentally based and exist as after-school or weekend programs and I think some of them are even being built into the school curriculum. I think there is this growing recognition that students thrive in different learning environments and learn in different ways while still maintaining a certain quality, but I think a lot of these programs tend to assume that you are at a certain ability level, physically or otherwise. I don’t know what they teach in schools these days, but does your school have these sorts of outdoor programs that also teach similar topics or themes around Mother Earth?
EK: For sure, I mean just because they might be a different intellectual or physical ability, doesn’t mean they cannot be in touch with Mother Earth, right? So we go for walks and one of the great things about our school is that the kids appreciate taking breaks and going for walks, and we do incorporate programming as much as we can that involves outdoor camping or outdoor day camps throughout the year, as much as we can based on whatever resources we have. One of the things we’re fighting for really is more funding for those things or to have more support in place. I do think those outdoor types of education programs or incorporating more the outdoors is so essential, especially for our kids, but also for any school really because more and more we’re living in such concrete confined walls, and I think a lot of our interaction is becoming more online. We, just as people, have become disconnected with nature and Mother Earth, where food comes, or how you grow things or how long it takes to grow things. What does it require? In today’s world, whether you’re young or old, we’re just so used to getting instant gratification. Think about Amazon, right? Next day delivery or even same day. If we bring it back to nature and how things work outside of these inventions that we as humans have created, there is a process, there is a lag time, or delayed gratification – planting the seeds and harvesting. There is so much work between that too. I think those things have easily been just forgotten in schools but also in workplaces. I think there’s immense value in bringing as much as you can early on. For our students, they totally appreciate it.
HK: I think about how important that is, especially when we’re talking about a setting like the classroom. I think about how many kids, and also adults, that just don’t have the same access to the space, but also the time and the resources and a lot of other factors. Yeah, and so it’s certainly a lot to think about. How do you take care when it comes to any senses of anxiety you might have whether with climate change, public education, or finances? How do you take care?
EK: For me, I find frequently, especially after my day job of working with the students that I work with, but with any school, you’re just so drained and tired because you’ve spent the whole day with teenagers. I tend to shut down. I need some time just to myself where I'm not interacting with anyone. I don’t like going on my phone, or on social media, anyway, where i’m inundated with everyone else’s lives. If i go on my phone, it’s just to read up on stuff or to listen to music or something. I find that I always need time for myself to recharge. I also like to, during those times, I also like to go for walks as frequently as I can. I’m not much of a runner (laughs).
HK: Same.
EK: I actually hate cardio…(laughs)
HK: Same, I feel that (laughs).
EK: But I do love walking and I could walk for hours...at my own pace (laughs). So yeah, I guess I just like to escape by walking or through silence or through listening to podcasts or sometimes, I'm just doing my own learning, whether it be personal development or just learning about the industry, or just ongoing training on products because we always have to be updated on those. And that’s yeah, I think that’s how I personally tend to cope. I used to listen to a lot more music back in the day, but I’ve found more value in silence nowadays so I’m okay without music.
HK: Nice. Do you have advice on ways people can cope with financial or eco-anxiety?
EK: (chuckles) So I guess I can leave with some last few words of practical tips. The first one is definitely education, so financial literacy, whether it be through books or online resources or touching base with myself or any other financial advisor, that’s definitely a way to navigate the information overload, but not just the education piece, you need to also apply what you learn and know. Definitely don't let analysis paralysis stop you from starting, and starting in terms of today rather than later, because our tendency as human beings is to procrastinate. We keep saying I'll look into it later or I'll put this in place later. But really, tomorrow comes never or disaster hits before you even get things in place. Definitely take care of things you need to take care of from the get-go. It’s also not about how much you make, it’s really about how much you keep. Learning conscious budgeting and spending but also learning the different tax advantages that the government allows for you to take and just knowing the system. The other thing that is huge, I would say, is discipline. When it comes to money management, it really comes down to discipline. Like I said, you don’t need a lot to get started, even if it’s 20 bucks a month. The act of putting away something for your future, it really comes down to discipline and habits. Build those positive habits that are going to be sustainable for you and your family long term. And hopefully those little tidbits will help you get started.
HK: Awesome, a good note to leave on. Thank you Esther for joining us.
EK: Thank you Harriet for the invitation. I just want to say that I feel this conversation, as a big of a topic as it kind of felt when you first asked me about it, I'm glad I was able to share my own thoughts and my own take as a financial advisor, as well an educator and as a concerned citizen, as well.
HK: Where can people find you?
EK: They can find me at...Well you can look for me on social media, if we’re going to talk about social media (laughs). I’ll be honest, I'm not very good at updating, although I do feel like I should be on there a bit more just in terms of communicating my brand. You can find me on social media, Instagram and Twitter mostly. My handle is @ms_estherkim. That’s Esther with an “h” (laughs). You can also, if you have personal questions, you can just email me at [email protected].
HK: Awesome, thank you. Before we close off, I want to give a special shoutout to giant doma for helping us with the recording and the production of this conversation. Thank you!
Harriet Kim (HK): Hey, this is Harriet from choa magazine. If I can start off with giving some broad brush strokes of what this conversation will be like. Today, I’m joined by Esther Kim, who is a financial advisor, an educator, and a wellness advocate. We are going to talk about what it means to exist and move through some of the intersections of finances, public education, and the climate crisis. And I want to acknowledge that there are a lot of different experiences when it comes to existing in this space and with what’s going on currently, I want to acknowledge that there are a lot of land defenders in Wet’suwet’en and across Canada who are doing the hard work when it comes to some of these intersections, in fighting climate change and fighting mass profits. And I also want to say that we asked Esther to join us today to speak from her own experiences and so, she, of course, speaks for herself and does not speak on behalf of all financial advisors or educators. So yeah, with that said, I want to welcome Esther. Thank you for joining us today.
Esther Kim (EK): Thank you, Harriet. It’s a pleasure and privilege to be here.
HK: We are speaking in Toronto, Canada, where we on the traditional territories of many nations including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples that is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit, and Métis.
Yeah, I’ll go right into the first question. Esther, can I ask you what does an average workday or work week look like for you?
EK: Sure, no problem. So, for myself, during the weekday, I’m a teacher at a public school with our local school board. I run a financial service and education and brokerage services so on weekday evenings, I’m either at the office or out on the field helping families with their financial planning or running financial literacy seminars, depending on what’s going on my calendar. And then weekends as well, I’m at office and then depending on client appointments, weekends are usually actually busier because people are off.
HK: What is your relationship to water, whether that is personally or professionally?
EK: So when you first sent me the questions and I saw this question there, I was like wow, in some way it feels like it is such a big question because for me, water for me, I've always recognized it as a finite resource. I actually studied sociology and women’s studies in university. I have a huge conscious awareness around the environment and water. We even studied water and the lack of water and you know, the conflicts that surround it.
I guess it’s a struggle everyday between trying to be responsible, but also being a citizen in a developed country, and you know, sometimes, convenience trumps social responsibility. But I do like what I can. I personally don’t like drinking out of bottled water if I can help it. I prefer the taste of tap water. Even when we have events, I prefer to have jugs of water over, you know, boxes of bottled water that’s available for people. So little things like that I think do matter when it comes to everyday living. I’m very conscious of how much water I’m spending. But at the same time, you know, I do enjoy getting the laundry done and I’ll be honest, I really enjoy getting my dishwasher done, like dishes washed through a machine, rather than me having to do dishwashing all the time. Yeah, it’s a constant internal struggle but I think I do my best in terms of being conscious and aware.
HK: Does this consciousness ever impact the ways that you budget your money and plan for the long-term?
EK: I mean water, or the climate crisis in general, as you can see the world is kind of going very wonky with the climate and that leads to all sorts of natural disasters. And so definitely, when it comes to planning, I make sure to do all risk assessments. So you can see risk in terms of casualty, so home and auto insurance and what not, like property, but there’s also risk assessment when it comes to your own health and your ability to work and so I definitely make sure those areas are covered. Also, I’m conscious of making sure that I have enough money for food, because as you know, groceries have gotten a lot more expensive and a lot of it has to do with, you know, the climate crisis. So budgeting enough for food, and healthy food especially, but then, you know, all these things play into housing as well, like in terms of materials. So as we live in the city, things are becoming very expensive and we’ve talked about this before, somewhere outside of here. It’s something I’m conscious of and even travelling, I’m always very particular about when I travel, or to where, or how I get there. So yeah, it plays out in so many different ways.
HK: Can I ask how this plays in your conversations with family or partners? Obviously we have our individual financial responsibilities but a lot of us have shared responsibilities when it comes to finances, whether that’s dependents or parents or siblings or romantic partners.
EK: So you’re talking about me personally?
HK: Yeah, just generally speaking, how does this consciousness also impact the way you talk about money and plan for money in your relationships?
EK: So right now, in terms of my own family, my parents are in Korea so a lot of our conversations don't happen as frequently as I'd like, in terms of deep financial planning, but that’s because of time difference, and you know, just out of living away from them for so long. For my own personal family experience, the communication hasn't been as frequent as I'd like for it to be. But they are visiting this April and I'm looking forward to that because I am going to sit down with them and talk to them for future planning for our own family. They are no longer young and we gotta make sure everything is in place and I want to make sure that everything is in place while they’re here in Canada.
In terms of my siblings, our conversations, I would say doesn’t necessarily revolve around money in terms of the climate crisis per se. It’s just more everyday planning or thinking of our parents, really, that would be really the point of conversation when it comes to money.
And then for my own romantic partner, it's more about reminding my partner to not be wasteful or let's try to pool our resources when it comes to doing certain things so we’re not wasting water or wasting time or wasting other people's time and resources, right? It’s an ongoing conversation more so with my partner just because that's who I see more regularly. My siblings I don't see as regularly. My parents are completely somewhere else. I hope that answers your question.
HK: Yeah, definitely. Having these conversations are often deeply personal so thank you for sharing. Thinking in more general terms, we shared a report with you about what some experts are saying in regards to the relationship between the threats from the climate crisis with the next financial crisis. You don’t have to make any big predictions but I think in general, it’s hard, or becoming harder, to think about finances, whether that’s individually or systemically, without at least acknowledging how the climate risks are affecting us, in one way or another. You mentioned some of the risks already: the impacts on residential areas from more frequent and more intense natural disasters, and for us in Toronto, we’re seeing this simultaneously with a housing crisis; on our food system across the whole value chain from farming the land to the increased prices of groceries for us as consumers; we’re seeing that on our healthcare system; and more increasingly, on migration in its various forms. What are your general thoughts or expectations for how things might change? You were just saying how it doesn’t necessarily affect your day-to-day conversations about money and I think that’s true for a lot of people, including myself, as well as those who are privileged to not have to think about these things as often. This is not to say we have to or should talk about money or the climate crisis 24/7 but do you think moving forward, people are going to have to factor these risks into our day-to-day conversations about money?
EK: I mean, especially now, I think more so in the news, we’re hearing more about climate change, right? Like especially in today’s day and age, more so, five, ten years ago even, even though the conversation probably started before then.
But in terms of how our everyday conversations goes, I think, there definitely would be more awareness because we're all so inundated by social media and just online sources of news, whether it be real or fake news, but those things, the wider exposure, I guess would be the word, of information, I think will make us naturally talk about those things a bit more. If not directly climate crisis, it would be the effects of it, whether it be due to the cost, the rising cost of housing or food, or for me, the thing that scares me, when our water, if and when, hopefully it doesn’t get to that point, but when the water situation does becomes a crisis even here, I mean it’s already a crisis in other parts of the world, we can acknowledge that for sure, but when we feel it here, I think that’ll be very scary because it’s so close to home. I just imagine situations where whenever you have a scarce resource, human beings may not always act their best and so it could lead to so many different safety concerns as well. I think that to me, for me, it's a conversation I have a lot in my head, if not with other people, but it is something that’s kind of lingering at the back of my head whenever I see the news about climate change. Also just thinking about our demographic overall in North America, but even in Asia, right? We have a lot more elderly people, aging, and that leads to a lot more vulnerable people. So yeah, it’s a tricky balance between having that conversation versus not having it, and then having that conversation with yourself and with others, and putting yourself in a situation where you’re taking care of yourself and your own finances, but also being able to contribute or help others. I think it’s a constant tug of war, if that makes any sense.
HK: Hmm I was thinking about this earlier, how...when it comes to things like climate change and finances and education we’ll talk about a little bit later, of course these are all things are very broad topics, but I think about how these things almost function in the same way in my body, like in terms of my physical reactions to these things. Like if I am feeling very anxious one day, like my body’s reaction feels kind of the same when thinking about, “Am I doing enough with my finances?” or “Am I doing enough to take care of the Earth?” and I do think about how both of these things have to hold a space in my head where I have to think about myself today but how much room do I have to think about what I can imagine and how I can imagine it 10 years, 20 years, 50 years down the line and that is such a hard thing to do, let alone with other people so yeah, I definitely feel that a lot.
Can I ask what kind of people generally do you work with? Are they young people, are they families, are they older people?
EK: You mean client-wise, right?
HK: Yeah.
EK: Yeah, actually, it’s a good mix. we’re talking about different walks of life, different ethnicities, different occupations, mostly middle market individuals and families.
HK: Sorry, when you say middle market, do you mean middle income?
EK: Yes, so the financial services industry, generally, is aside from the banks, but even the banks, beyond the retail level of the banks, really the ones who get the phone calls those who have a lot of money in their bank accounts, right? For everyone else who is more of the middle income earner, you only know the banks to do everything with the banks but really they might be the best place for you to put your money at. That’s why I do enjoy working with the middle market family because often I’m able to help them and educate them about what’s out there and how the Canadian system works with where to put our money. And also teaching them basic financial concepts because we don’t get financial literacy in school. Or at least, that wasn’t the case for me and I know for a lot of people as well. I was born and raised in Canada for the most part. And I’m currently a public school teacher so I don’t see, still, a lot of financial literacy being taught. So whether I'm at school or whether sitting down with an individual or family, I constantly feel like I'm teaching different things. When I’m sitting down with families, it’s definitely going over basic financial concepts. There aren't a lot you have to master but if you can understand some, then that already can be very powerful. It’s just a matter of implementing and knowing what’s out there. So that’s where I can help in terms of providing awareness about what’s out there.
But I find that the middle market is often the market that is left behind from the financial services industry. Even if it’s not a middle income earner, even if it's a high earner, someone who is self-employed, a business owner, even a dentist or a lawyer, often they don’t understand the whole financial system as a whole. Even teachers, you’d be surprised how much teachers don’t know anything about their finances, partly because there’s a pension fund for teachers, as opposed to putting away for RRSP (Registered Retirement Savings Plan).
So yeah, I work with a very diverse group. I guess the planning really comes down to what their goals are and what their situation is. And there can be some cultural aspects to that, as well.
HK: In terms of the sort of challenges or kind of awareness people might have in thinking of the climate impacts, or the climate risks, in their financial decisions, do you get a lot of people bringing that up when they come to you?
EK: Climate Risks?
HK: Yeah, like the ones we kind of talked about earlier, like is my home safe when wildfires hit? Is that part of my insurance, kind of thing? Do you get a lot of people concerned about that sort of thing?
EK: Not so much about wildfires. I think people, if anything, are concerned about health emergencies. Maybe, I guess in Toronto, I guess we’re a bit more comfortable or cushioned off from all the natural disasters, thankfully. With that being said, what we do see a lot more of is a lot of illnesses at a younger age, or so and so being hit with this and that. For clients I work with, a lot of the time, the emergency piece is a lot more around health emergencies rather than casualty, disastrous sort of situations. The other factor would be more around long-term care, as well, more so around wildfires.
HK: I see. I guess wildfires, that was the first thing that came to my mind but I guess in Toronto, we’re more affected by kind of flash flooding but I don’t know if that’s a concern. I guess, I keep going back to insurance but that’s just one example of what could possibly happen.
EK: That aside, I do have clients, not all, but a handful that do ask the questions of when they invest in what are funds, what are they supporting? I do have some people who are asking those questions, surprisingly not as much as I’d like, personally. But definitely, I think the conversation is going to happen even more moving forward. But I do have some friends who are definitely more socially aware and do ask those questions. In which case, I talk to them that there are certain companies that have a socially responsible investing type of funds but not all companies necessarily have that or have a wide range of it so yeah, that conversation does happen time-to-time.
HK: I want to talk a bit more about that but I’m going to put that on hold for a minute because you also brought up the cultural aspect of it. I want to ask you if...so I think of Korean parents. I want to say around the 50 to 60-ish age range, where they have these, what I call “social banks,” I’m not sure if that’s an actual phenomenon. It’s not something I know a lot about or really understand as someone who is just noticing it. I say “social banks,” but I really mean this sort of informal, casual system of borrowing and lending money systems. I don’t know how much of that is to strengthen community bonds, and how much of that is a necessity for racialized communities and being underserved by mainstream financial industry. But I do imagine that is a sort of a universal thing among racialized communities in general, not just the Korean community specifically. But I do wonder if these kinds of community-based or sociocultural relationships to money factor into your work with clients, and maybe more specifically older clients?
EK: So when you bring that up, I also remember times growing up when we would have another Korean woman, not necessarily a friend, a family friend, but someone that would come over and I would see her and my mom counting money and it brought up memories of that. I do agree with you, it may have been out of a necessity at a time, especially for our parents, who are immigrants coming in with a language barrier and whatnot. I find now, currently with the clients I work with that are immigrants or couples generations in, I find that the principles of group economics, is what I'll call it, is not necessarily there when it comes to lending or borrowing per se because I think most people now are able to access the banks because we have branches that are completely in Korean at Yonge and Finch if you go there. But I do think how group economics does play a factor is when, you know, people or families share the same homes or buy homes together, right? Whether it be to leverage each other’s credit because now housing prices are so much or it is because within the Korean culture, we have that expectations to be living with our grandparents or caring for our parents as they get older so I see it being played out in that sense in the terms of insurance and retirement and long-term care, not so much in lending piece, for myself personally anyway.
HK: Before we got onto the conversation about the cultural aspect, you mentioned that there are some people who come to you with questions about socially responsible investing. I want to talk a little bit about making socially responsible decisions that are aligned with our values, and specifically decisions that might be in tension with other values that we hold and/or might be in the context of big corporate power. I’ll give you an example. I bank with CIBC and I went to McGill, which are both big institutional players in our society and both have relationships with fossil fuels, which not everyone may know about. There’s a big movement from the ground up that is pushing for fossil fuel divestment, including by these two institutions. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with this but I am someone is in the camp of wanting these institutions, and beyond, to divest and I am also someone who talks pretty openly, I’d say, against fossil fuels but admittedly, something that maybe I don’t talk enough about is how I am also someone who benefits greatly/gains a lot of value from having graduated from this school – and I mean that both professionally and personally – and from continuing to bank with CIBC, in terms of convenience, longevity, etc. I think a lot of us carry these kinds of opposing or contradicting truths, especially like I said in the context of these sorts of big corporate powers that you can’t necessarily go head-to-head with, so how do you go about these mindful financial decisions in these kinds of situations?
EK: Again, it comes to that tug-of-war thing again, right? Where you’re a citizen of a capitalist society, participating in certain things and investing in certain areas, and you as an individual, sometimes you feel small or limited in terms of your choices. But at the same time, I wouldn't take the power away from one person either because your money speaks a lot. Where you put your money really speaks volumes for companies, right? At the end of the day, you can vote with your money. I think it’s just a matter of doing a bit more research if you’re interested in spending so that it aligns with your values, but of course, you can’t research everything that you eat and even work and all the environment around you, but I think it is a fine balance of trying, if you are the type to want to align your values to where you spend your money. It’s going to be a constant tug-of-war because you care. I think it’s always easier to be ignorant but that’s no excuse either, right? Especially when things are so urgent at this point in time.
What I would say, going back to the individual power, a lot of it, if you’re just constantly trying to survive, you can’t really make huge positive change beyond your community. I mean you can, and people have, but overall, you always want to put the oxygen mask on yourself and have certain things going for you so that you can help others without worrying about your own situation, rather than digging yourself a hole. So when I think about individuals and what they can do, little things I can think about is, if you know certain companies are doing certain things, whether to animals or the environment, you really don’t have to spend your money there. It can speak volumes. However, I would also encourage more people not to just be consumer. Be an investor. Look for these companies that are doing great things and find out if you can invest in them.
The SRI, the socially responsible investments funds, are more mutual funds so a pooled basket of companies but you can invest in company’s shares, stocks, if you do your own research as to what companies are doing good. That would probably be the best way to invest because socially responsible companies eventually do better, and more and more in the future, they will do better, even more so than now. I think initially, when the idea of being socially responsible and conscious came up, the market was a little...they kind of dismissed it and didn’t see the link, but I think more and more companies are seeing that consumers want that. And so as consumers, if you demand certain things, you can eventually create change. Again, not just being a consumer, but also looking at being an investor and really speaking with your money in terms of how you spend it that way. But also as I talk about increasing your own situation, elevating your own situation financially, it comes down to increasing your own level of financial literacy for yourself. I think part of the challenge to that could be that we live in such an information era and you can get so much information online and it can be overwhelming so that’s where you want to find an advisor, if you can, or someone who can guide you through that. Along with increasing financial literacy, I also think building sustainable habits is another thing you do and that I don't take power from. At the end of the day, we are human beings, creatures of habits. If your habits are destructive, maybe not on a large scale, it’s just little things here and there, maybe buying Tim Hortons everyday and throwing away cups that are supposedly recyclable but they’re not (laughs). Things like that, little things like that, they do eventually compound in terms of the overall effects of climate change and just waste and all that. I always...I don’t know if you’re aware of the compounding effect, whether it be interest or habits, but everyday, little habits might not seem like much but just like a hockey stick, towards the end, it kind of swerves up, that hook, and it’s very sudden. Everyday, small little negative or positive habits can eventually cause dramatic negative or positive consequences, and that's how I see us in terms of human and our habits, along with how we invest our money. I don’t know if that makes sense, but I’m trying to draw a picture for you visually.
HK: Yeah that makes sense. I think about how important these small habits are and building up the good ones. I wanted to ask you, do you think we also have a responsibility, in addition to taking these small steps, taking on the question of how do we keep these, for example, bigger corporations accountable for setting these things up in the first place? We mentioned the example of Tim Hortons, so how do we keep Tim Hortons, for example, accountable for even producing disposable coffee cups in the first place? I’m sure there are a thousand things to fill in that example but for example that.
EK: Well, like I said, I think our money speaks volume so if we stop going to Tim Hortons and make it very vocal that that’s the reason why, I think Tim Hortons will go out of their way to make some changes. I don’t know if it’ll be immediate, but if it hurts them in their books, I think most companies will feel the incentive to change. But at the end of the day, a company is all about profits so it has to make sense to them cost-wise, too. But if it’s not like a mom and pop shop, we’re talking about Tim Hortons, I do think they probably could wiggle some...make some room in their budget to make some changes here and there, personally. But I don’t work there, I don’t look at their statements so I wouldn’t know but I do think we can, I don’t want to say the word shaming, but I think we can call them out for certain things for sure, and I think we have a lot of channels and avenues to do so, such as social media or through stories, or whatever the case may be.
HK: I guess speaking of social media and also you mention this culture of information overload, with the Internet and social media and the sort of news cycle that we have on 24/7. I think about what’s going on in Ontario right now with the education cuts and also the IPCC...C? Did I say 3 c’s?
EK: (laughs) Yes...CCC...yes.
HK: Anyway, they (The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) came out with that report a couple of years ago, saying that, now in 2020, we now only have about 10 years before the impacts of global warming are supposed to be irreversible unless we do something about it. So I think about all the young people now that are in school, especially in the high school age range because that seems like such a tender age for this...where you’re old enough to be conscious of the impacts of it on their futures but young enough to not necessarily be sure of what you can do. It does seem they are having to grapple more deeply with existential questions like ‘Can I afford to go to school and does it even matter if the world is on fire by the time I graduate?’ That’s not to say previous generations didn’t feel a similar sort of worry about their futures. Again, I do think part of it is being able to physically see it through social media or the Internet but I want to ask what are your impressions of how students are feeling in regards to these kinds of questions and how are they dealing with these pressures?
EK: For me, the school that I work at is a little different. I work at a special needs school, so I don’t want to say that my students don’t fully understand the grasp or the gravity of the situation that you see on the news. But they’re probably a couple steps further out in terms of it being in their consciousness, you know, or their day-to-day anyway, even if we have the news playing in the foyer kind of thing. But I’ve tried to put myself in the shoes of young ones today and I definitely do feel like the younger generation is dealing with bigger questions than even my generation over 10 years ago had to deal with – actually it’s closer to 20 years ago now, I’m revealing my age (laughs).
I think about it and yeah, for sure, it’s gotta be daunting when the news is constantly talking about climate change, nevermind this report, but there are many other sources that kind of mention sort of the same thing--we only have a few years to make it right before it’s irreversible. I can only imagine. Being a teacher in a special needs school, I’m in a little bit of a bubble but when I talk to teachers who are in academic schools or other types of schools, alternative schools or whatnot, there is definitely more of an engagement I would say from students. I think more so than my time really, which is a positive, the fact that young people can be engaged with real world issues. I think at the end of the day, that’s the job of a public education system, to make young folks ask questions, to think critically, and to connect the dots, right? So, what I have seen, though, is definitely an increase in terms of a mental health sort of crisis as we may even call it. I don't know if they necessarily come from climate change per se, for my guys anyway, my students that I work with. I think it’s just a different world that people are growing up in right now with social media, going back to that, and going back to having instant Internet connection but at the same time, feeling so disconnected when it comes to dealing with people. I think more people have trouble just holding conversations, not just the young folks. I’m talking about adults. More and more people are attached to their phones and don’t know how to be around silence with others or in conversation with others. It’s definitely a different world I can attest to as a teacher in the system, as well. Financially or when it comes to the global warming piece, I don’t necessarily see it on the day-to-day with my guys but I’m sure it’s definitely everywhere, in all the social studies classes, even, for the regular schools.
HK: So I know you’ve been working as a teacher, is it 10 years now?
EK: Yeah 10 years.
HK: Have you been with special needs the entire time?
EK: No, well, probably a good half, more than 5 years, with the special needs population. I'm currently at a special needs school, which is all special needs, but I’ve also worked at other schools with the special needs population. And I’ve also worked with students that have been homeschooled, alternative schools, tech schools, academic schools.
HK: I think that’s actually a piece of the conversation that I find often gets missed, and also it wasn’t even something I thought of to think about questions about in terms of the disability vs ability...okay, I don’t mean to make it such a binary this or that, but I think when talking about special needs, I think your experiences with ability levels, and how that is accommodated in our world, in our system, in our city, is seems like it’s often overlooked.
EK: Oh, oh yeah.
HK: So I’m assuming it’s not just whether or not your students are thinking about the issues of the climate crisis. I'm sure they have parents or other loved ones that are thinking about a world that is already not very accommodating, let alone in the future, how is my kid going to do when, again, different natural disasters are happening? Is there going to be a world that is able to accommodate my kid in whatever needs that they need to be met? So I’m wondering do you ever talk to parents about these challenges? Do they ever bring it up?
EK: Not so much in terms of climate change per se, but definitely it’s not only with parents, it’s also amongst teacher and staff, support staff, principal. We’re constantly trying to figure out what we can do to best support them while we have them, but how do we also help transition them out to a place where they are valued but they can also feel like they’re contributing. Honestly, it’s such a big, big--personally speaking--I think it’s a big challenge, just because it’s constantly on my mind when I’m at work.
Actually let me backtrack. Going back to the whole “not so much of the consciousness being there.” I gotta say, a lot of my students, their parents, they have family overseas and of course, there are so many things happening around the world. And yeah, it would affect, and could or has, affected students’ families, whether directly or indirectly, because our students are from everywhere. Even though I'm not having the conversations with my students per se, I'm sure it’s being impacting on many different levels for the families, whether I hear about it, or not, is a whole other thing. I just want to mention that, I don't want to neglect that whole piece.
However, going back to your question, it is a big concern piece for me and it is one of my life projects is to build something in the future where I can eventually hire my students that have graduated to help the project I have in mind which I won't say here, but if anyone ever wants to take me out to coffee, I’d be happy to share. It’s definitely constantly on our minds when we do our day-to-day work. I can only imagine the amount of anxiety and fear that parents would be feeling, take away the climate change piece, just planning for a student who may need additional help that sometimes families can’t even accommodate, right? It’s one that really...yeah, you can tell by my face that it weighs really heavy on me and the people that I work with but it’s also a joy to be working with them on a day-to-day level. And you know, going back to the ability piece, just to be specific, I work with students with mild intellectual disabilities (MID) and developmentally delayed and throughout those two populations, we have autism sprinkled all around. It can be a challenging group, but you know, everyone within the school has their own ability, as well. Sometimes they’re outstanding in their ability, so it depends on how we see it.
HK: I guess I have a question that is kind of a two part sort of question. The first part is, you mention that this is on the minds of you and your colleagues, I wonder how you sort of interact with your colleagues about this? I understand there are a lot of challenges that you need to be thinking about but I do want to bring it back to the climate change piece just because that’s kind of the context that we are doing this volume so I want to ask about that. The other thing is that so much of that seems to be unfairly a big burden on teachers. It does seem to me that so much more needs to be done on the part of the general public or like our policymakers or...just everyone in our society basically. Are there things you think that we as a general public can do to support the kind of work that you’re doing with your students?
EK: Hmm, I’m just trying to give an answer with the climate change piece in mind. It’s such a... it’s a big problem and a big challenge to tackle. And I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s not something that only teachers can do to fix this problem, to educate, and create awareness. I think it has to be coming from a mass conscious level, and I think we’re getting there because the urgency, the sense of urgency, is getting greater at this point.
I think in terms of, maybe the first step really is just a change in how we view people with different abilities. I think maybe that’s the easiest thing, the first thing we can do really is changing our perception when it comes to people of different abilities. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, people just want to be seen as people, and be treated as people, and valued as people. It’s so easy when we, especially if it’s a physical disability, for us to make certain preconceived judgements. But my stance, because it’s more of an intellectual disability, even though some have physical challenges, sometimes it’s not as...sometimes you can have a conversation with them and not even realize that they have a mild intellectual disability until you’re talking more in-depth type of conversation and then you realize it’s going way over their heads. When it comes to students like that and when they become adults...I guess my biggest fear for them really is when they go out into society, first of all, will they be treated with dignity and respect, not just from everyday people but I guess my other big concern is from law enforcement, right? Because they’re not always the best when it comes to making judgement calls--that’s part of their challenge, right? So if they make decisions that might not be best for them, or impulsive decisions, and just because they happen to be of this class, or this race, or this ethnicity and background, or this religion even, would they, could they be treated in a certain way? Yeah, for sure it happens all the time, even in Toronto. We’re one of the most multicultural cities but we see it all the time. I see it all the time, and I’ve experienced it too as an able-bodied person, right? I think to me that is one of the biggest concerns – the safety concern when they leave the school because they’re not going to the accommodations that they’re getting in the school out in society. Going back to your question as to what we can do, changing your perspective and seeing them as people, your brother, your sister, whatever, your son, daughter, however you want to see it. But also being able to, maybe do your part in terms of advocating for them if they’re not able to advocate for themselves in certain situations, if it’s not at the law making policy level but in certain situations on the subway, if you can understand, oh this person needs help or needs someone to voice for their sake because they’re not able. I think that’s with any vulnerable population, though, right?
HK: Right...I wonder...so I actually don’t know what the sort of classroom structure or class schedule is like, but do you...so as someone who is able-bodied and doesn’t have any intellectual disability...I’m having a bit of trouble actually wording this question...how do I talk about this? So I have really no sense of what sort of the like, is it similar to I guess able-bodied classes in terms of curriculum, can you go over the curriculum at a special needs school?
EK: I can only speak for my experience with my school and how it operates. So none of the students at my school get credits and a high school diploma. The way we’ve structured the classes is really based on the student's need or their ability. We may have one class that’s... what we say is a bit more fragile in terms of physical ability because they're in a wheelchair or they require a nurse or an oxygen mask, right? That might be one class where that homeroom teacher has to cater to that. Then we have students who are more sensory so they have to be constantly moving so that teacher has to constantly work around building a curriculum for them that involves constant movement. It really depends on who you get. For me, it really depends on the class as well, whether it’s working with DD (developmental disability) or MID population. I always have to meet them first and build the curriculum around certain parameters of course. But it’s sad to say, there isn’t a lot of support when it comes to the curriculum piece for special needs in our public education, which sucks when it comes to the support piece but in some ways, we can be more creative and innovative in spite of that…I hope that answers your question.
HK: Yeah, that totally answers my question. I was just thinking and want to say that I’m sorry ableist bullshit came with the wording of that question and generally as we talk about public education and special needs. It definitely goes to show how little different needs are thought of by the general public, and of course that includes myself, so that’s good to know. I did have a question about programs that are outdoor or environmentally based and exist as after-school or weekend programs and I think some of them are even being built into the school curriculum. I think there is this growing recognition that students thrive in different learning environments and learn in different ways while still maintaining a certain quality, but I think a lot of these programs tend to assume that you are at a certain ability level, physically or otherwise. I don’t know what they teach in schools these days, but does your school have these sorts of outdoor programs that also teach similar topics or themes around Mother Earth?
EK: For sure, I mean just because they might be a different intellectual or physical ability, doesn’t mean they cannot be in touch with Mother Earth, right? So we go for walks and one of the great things about our school is that the kids appreciate taking breaks and going for walks, and we do incorporate programming as much as we can that involves outdoor camping or outdoor day camps throughout the year, as much as we can based on whatever resources we have. One of the things we’re fighting for really is more funding for those things or to have more support in place. I do think those outdoor types of education programs or incorporating more the outdoors is so essential, especially for our kids, but also for any school really because more and more we’re living in such concrete confined walls, and I think a lot of our interaction is becoming more online. We, just as people, have become disconnected with nature and Mother Earth, where food comes, or how you grow things or how long it takes to grow things. What does it require? In today’s world, whether you’re young or old, we’re just so used to getting instant gratification. Think about Amazon, right? Next day delivery or even same day. If we bring it back to nature and how things work outside of these inventions that we as humans have created, there is a process, there is a lag time, or delayed gratification – planting the seeds and harvesting. There is so much work between that too. I think those things have easily been just forgotten in schools but also in workplaces. I think there’s immense value in bringing as much as you can early on. For our students, they totally appreciate it.
HK: I think about how important that is, especially when we’re talking about a setting like the classroom. I think about how many kids, and also adults, that just don’t have the same access to the space, but also the time and the resources and a lot of other factors. Yeah, and so it’s certainly a lot to think about. How do you take care when it comes to any senses of anxiety you might have whether with climate change, public education, or finances? How do you take care?
EK: For me, I find frequently, especially after my day job of working with the students that I work with, but with any school, you’re just so drained and tired because you’ve spent the whole day with teenagers. I tend to shut down. I need some time just to myself where I'm not interacting with anyone. I don’t like going on my phone, or on social media, anyway, where i’m inundated with everyone else’s lives. If i go on my phone, it’s just to read up on stuff or to listen to music or something. I find that I always need time for myself to recharge. I also like to, during those times, I also like to go for walks as frequently as I can. I’m not much of a runner (laughs).
HK: Same.
EK: I actually hate cardio…(laughs)
HK: Same, I feel that (laughs).
EK: But I do love walking and I could walk for hours...at my own pace (laughs). So yeah, I guess I just like to escape by walking or through silence or through listening to podcasts or sometimes, I'm just doing my own learning, whether it be personal development or just learning about the industry, or just ongoing training on products because we always have to be updated on those. And that’s yeah, I think that’s how I personally tend to cope. I used to listen to a lot more music back in the day, but I’ve found more value in silence nowadays so I’m okay without music.
HK: Nice. Do you have advice on ways people can cope with financial or eco-anxiety?
EK: (chuckles) So I guess I can leave with some last few words of practical tips. The first one is definitely education, so financial literacy, whether it be through books or online resources or touching base with myself or any other financial advisor, that’s definitely a way to navigate the information overload, but not just the education piece, you need to also apply what you learn and know. Definitely don't let analysis paralysis stop you from starting, and starting in terms of today rather than later, because our tendency as human beings is to procrastinate. We keep saying I'll look into it later or I'll put this in place later. But really, tomorrow comes never or disaster hits before you even get things in place. Definitely take care of things you need to take care of from the get-go. It’s also not about how much you make, it’s really about how much you keep. Learning conscious budgeting and spending but also learning the different tax advantages that the government allows for you to take and just knowing the system. The other thing that is huge, I would say, is discipline. When it comes to money management, it really comes down to discipline. Like I said, you don’t need a lot to get started, even if it’s 20 bucks a month. The act of putting away something for your future, it really comes down to discipline and habits. Build those positive habits that are going to be sustainable for you and your family long term. And hopefully those little tidbits will help you get started.
HK: Awesome, a good note to leave on. Thank you Esther for joining us.
EK: Thank you Harriet for the invitation. I just want to say that I feel this conversation, as a big of a topic as it kind of felt when you first asked me about it, I'm glad I was able to share my own thoughts and my own take as a financial advisor, as well an educator and as a concerned citizen, as well.
HK: Where can people find you?
EK: They can find me at...Well you can look for me on social media, if we’re going to talk about social media (laughs). I’ll be honest, I'm not very good at updating, although I do feel like I should be on there a bit more just in terms of communicating my brand. You can find me on social media, Instagram and Twitter mostly. My handle is @ms_estherkim. That’s Esther with an “h” (laughs). You can also, if you have personal questions, you can just email me at [email protected].
HK: Awesome, thank you. Before we close off, I want to give a special shoutout to giant doma for helping us with the recording and the production of this conversation. Thank you!
Behind-the-scene of the interview – (L-R) Seungwoo of giant doma, Esther, and Harriet
Esther Kim is a licensed financial professional who is passionate about empowering others to make informed choices by bringing financial literacy to the community. She also serves as a teacher with the Toronto District School Board during the day.
Born and raised in a Korean immigrant family, Esther remembers the financial struggles and disempowerment her family experienced due to a lack of financial education and understanding of the Canadian system. She quickly realized after landing her first teaching gig a decade ago, that even after completing three degrees, she was no better off than her parents when it came to managing her own finances. Esther decided to take matters into her own hands by going back to school for human resources and becoming licensed in the financial services industry to help her family and many others like hers. When she is not teaching or running financial literacy seminars, she is out in the field helping families get their finances in order.
Possessing a heart of servitude, Esther has spear-headed and supported many initiatives throughout the community to help marginalized youth particularly in the areas of race/ethnicity, gender, sexuality, and mental health. | Website: estherkimofficial.com
Born and raised in a Korean immigrant family, Esther remembers the financial struggles and disempowerment her family experienced due to a lack of financial education and understanding of the Canadian system. She quickly realized after landing her first teaching gig a decade ago, that even after completing three degrees, she was no better off than her parents when it came to managing her own finances. Esther decided to take matters into her own hands by going back to school for human resources and becoming licensed in the financial services industry to help her family and many others like hers. When she is not teaching or running financial literacy seminars, she is out in the field helping families get their finances in order.
Possessing a heart of servitude, Esther has spear-headed and supported many initiatives throughout the community to help marginalized youth particularly in the areas of race/ethnicity, gender, sexuality, and mental health. | Website: estherkimofficial.com
Audio Editor:
giant doma produces podcasts, digital collage art, and other creative endeavours. | Website: giantdoma.club, Email: [email protected]
giant doma produces podcasts, digital collage art, and other creative endeavours. | Website: giantdoma.club, Email: [email protected]
