Illustration by Mirae Lee
Jayci Lee on Writing Romance Novels, the Role of Purity Culture within Korean Diasporas, and Joy without Shame
Interview by Harriet Kim
Audio Edited by Frances Kim
I love romance novels. I love their variety as well as the comfort they offer when wrongs are made right and everyone gets their happy ending. I first heard about Jayci from Bookstagram (where else?). There was something particularly thrilling about reading The “I Do” Dilemma, an American romantic comedy that very much felt like so many Korean dramas I have watched, and then describing it to Mirae. The popularity of Korean dramas outside of Korea is not new, but it felt novel (pun intended) to read something like them in a genre that has felt distinctly separate. We talk about this with Jayci and the strong feminist traditions across the United States and North America—even, or especially, within the romance genre—whether as a reader or as a writer (or both).
Transcript
Harriet Kim (HK): Thank you for joining us for volume four. Maybe we'll just go right into the first question. So in a past life, you were a litigator, which I imagine involves a lot of reading, a lot of writing, probably a very different part of your brain compared to now as one of the first, if not only, traditionally published Korean American romance authors. Even within the romance genre, there is such variation. You had a busy summer with the publication of That Prince Is Mine and your debut romance fantasy called Nine Tailed. Tell us about what sparked your interest in writing romance novels.
Harriet Kim (HK): Thank you for joining us for volume four. Maybe we'll just go right into the first question. So in a past life, you were a litigator, which I imagine involves a lot of reading, a lot of writing, probably a very different part of your brain compared to now as one of the first, if not only, traditionally published Korean American romance authors. Even within the romance genre, there is such variation. You had a busy summer with the publication of That Prince Is Mine and your debut romance fantasy called Nine Tailed. Tell us about what sparked your interest in writing romance novels.
Jayci Lee
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Jayci Lee (JL): My interest in romance novels started quite a while back. I started reading Harlequin Romance, the sweeter version, when I was 13 years old. I progressed into the steamier by the time I was 14. Within that time, I realized I love these stories and I love the way they make me feel. My heart ached and [feel] hopeful and happy and joyous. I wanted to write one of these books, but of course, I never thought it could be my real job.
Being the daughter of immigrant parents, I went on to get my undergraduate from UC Berkeley and then went to get my JD at USC Law School, practiced law for 15 years and ultimately, got burnt out doing a job that was not suited for my personality. So while I took some time off, I'm like, “Hey, when I was 14, I wanted to be a romance author.” Since I was busy with school and practicing law and then getting married and having two kids, I just forgot about that part of myself. |
With the break I was taking from practice, I decided I'm going to sit down and write the romance novel I wanted to write. I ended up writing that book in two months and that is my debut rom-com called A Sweet Mess. Then I wrote my next book in less than four months, and that is my debut contemporary romance with Harlequin called Temporary Wife Temptation. So that's how I got started.
HK: Wow, that's quite a short timeframe to be writing a book so I'm very impressed. Before I ask you the next question, I really quickly want to ask, do you remember what the first book you read at 13 was?
JL: I have no idea. I remember snippets of this book and that book, but I was literally just consuming these books. I went to the local library and I think there was a 10 book limit for paperback. I would literally borrow 10 books in the swim bag I had every Saturday. I'd go and fill it up and go through them all. Next week, another 10 books, go through them all. I don't remember the title or even the exact story, but I was just devouring those books.
And I just wanted to fess up. I wrote those two books very quickly, right? But I spent over two years rewriting and revising and polishing them. So it wasn't until two years later that I was offered a contract. I signed with an agent. So all of that took a little longer, especially since I was working full time again. The rewrite, of course, just happened in snippets, lunchtime. You know, half an hour after the kids went to sleep things like that. But it just takes you however long it takes you to write a book.
HK: That's fair. Also very fair that you don't remember the book, but when you were 13, I just love hearing about these sort of romance novels, like origin stories almost.
Yeah, going back to your books and maybe making that transition from legal writing. to romance writing, and like you were saying, you were doing that at the same time, it sounds like?
JL: Yes.
HK: What was that transition like for you?
JL: It was a little bit of a back and forth, but like you said, I guess it uses different parts of the brain, so it's not like there was much overlap.
Novel writing is completely different from legal writing. I was a litigator, so I wrote motions, which were mainly persuasive legal documents, convincing the court that our side is right, their side is wrong. And then, as for romance, because I was such an avid reader, I think I knew how to tell a story, and it really is knowing all the nuances of storytelling and how to unfold it that's different.
Legal writing is very structured, but fiction is definitely more creative. There are things that are necessary: character arc, plot for a romance. There's the meet cute, there's a thing called “black moment” near the end and then a grand gesture. There are reader expectations out of a romance novel, but other than that, it's really your voice and your style that guides a fiction or romance novel.
HK: Like you were saying, there were a lot of parts that are just expected with a novel generally and then also maybe like reader expectations of what comes with a romance novel so do you find that they're like writing between the different genres within romance is similar? I wonder with maybe the fantasy romance, was there research that you might have done to figure out, oh this is what is part of a fantasy book that you had to do in order to write like these different genres within romance.
JL: I didn't really read many craft books about writing or storytelling in general. When I just started writing romance, I did get this book called Romancing the Beat, and it's a very straightforward checklist to know that you are hitting the right notes at the right times in your story. But I think, like I said, because I'm an avid reader, I kind of had internalized all those beats already.
And I think the same goes for fantasy writing. So Nine Tailed is a part of a trilogy, a planned trilogy. So the romance within it, the story within it, all of it continues through three books. So the ebb and flow of the character arc, the romance, the fantasy, the mystery, all of it is definitely different from a romcom or contemporary romance.
But no, I did not research or learn different craft or read different craft books about how to write a fantasy novel, how to build a world. I think my best education has been reading other fantasy romance…so many that I have internalized what or how these stories should be told.
HK: Yeah, I think people who love romance novels, really love romance novels, so they know.. kind of, I mean, I include myself in this, and that you kind of know what you like and what pacing to expect, you kind of know when you're really in it.
JL: Yes.
HK: But I think people who are in it, those expectations of what you want from a book are very different from people who are maybe on the outside and aren't really into romance as much. So like you were saying, when you started writing romance, you had a three book contract with Harlequin Romance, which has a very specific connotation to, I think, for a lot of people who are avid readers of romance and people who are not.
It's, of course, a very big institution within…not just romance novels, but just like publishing in general and I think for me, personally, I've noticed that the romance landscape, if you will, is changing even within the last 10 years or so.
JL: Yeah, so rapidly.
HK: Yeah, and I think that there is, I mean, whether or not it's still the case or not I think at one point there was this expectation of trilogies like Fifty Shades of Grey or Bodice Ripper Romances, and the expectation is that, oh, these are very geared towards suburban moms who “don't have anything better to do”, and I think there is that stereotype for a lot of people, and I'm curious if as someone who's both a reader and a writer of romance novels, if you've noticed any trends or shifts over the years in terms of expectations or perceptions around romance novels.
JL: Okay, so Fifty Shades of Grey is erotica, a completely different sub genre. Harlequin is category romance, where reader expectations are very specific, and there is definitely a word count limit, so you have to get to the point, stay on the point, and get the story in there while giving readers all the different feels that they expect from Harlequin.
But Harlequin, definitely when it was a subscription based company publisher, I think the market was geared towards Midwestern stay-at-home moms, whatnot. And I did have that perception before I started writing romance, because I backed away from reading romance because I didn't have time. And In that time, Harlequin and the romance genre has been growing and I had a lot of catching up to do when I came back into that world.
And I have only been published for four years. I debuted in 2020 and the landscape in the last four years is completely different. It's mind boggling and unsettling and we just have to stay flexible, stay afloat. It's pretty scary.
HK: Admittedly, sometimes I use the word "romance" very loosely when talking about the book genre and will use it interchangeably for some of the different subsets of the romance genre so that can sometimes mean everything from Jane Austen to Fifty Shades of Grey, which are, of course, two very different aspects of the romance book genre.
And I think the assumptions and perceptions and expectations around intimacy and love and sex, as it pertains to those types of books, is very different in a lot of ways I think it's very gendered, or at least it has been in my experience. in some ways, that has been Good for me, especially when I first started reading something like erotica romance at 18. It was a lot of fun in large part because it was this safe place bubble with other sorts of young women around my age that, you know, really allowed for that exploration and that fun.
As I've gotten older, I've really appreciated and continue to appreciate the generational difference that someone who is 18 years old now in 2024 brings. And yeah, I think the changes also are reflected in the publishing landscape and that includes a lot more Korean American stories that are being published generally.
And specifically for our conversation, you are one of the few, if not only, Korean Americans romance novels with Korean leads that also include very explicit sex scenes. I think this is important for a lot of reasons, especially for us diasporic Koreans who often consume Korean content from Korea. Not to say that these are necessarily comparable things. Of course, Korean entertainment is fun and at a whole other level with world building. Again, I don't bring this up to necessarily compare apples to oranges, but I just bring it up because there is a difference in the way that we see something like sexual tension be played out in the storytelling, at least in the mainstream content that we're getting. While your books may not necessarily be specifically targeting a Korean American audience, it does feel like you're speaking to a certain Korean American or American sensibility that doesn't feel like it really exists yet in the formal sort of traditional process of publishing.
JL: So I will address the first one in terms of romance being gendered, and that's one of the main things that have changed.
The LGBTQ community is definitely a strong voice in the romance community, and romance is not just for women anymore for sure. It remains a safe space read by progressive feminist women, as well as all other genders, and it's growing, as it should be. Romance and Happily Ever After shouldn't be reserved solely for women.
We could also touch upon the K-drama, which is also very widely consumed. And my books being about Korean Americans and my message being sex positivity, strong women knowing what they want and expressing what they want and embracing female pleasure. All of that, I believe it should be part of any culture and sensibility.
I do believe that Korean culture has evolved along with the times, whereas the Korean diaspora remained stagnant, perhaps in the 70s. So the sensibilities are much more old fashioned and kind of left behind the times, because I have seen K-dramas that do not necessarily like open door sex scenes, but imply that characters have had sex and do not make a big deal out of it.
So I don't think purity culture is as emphasized in Korean culture as much as it is in Korean American culture. And I think that has to do with how the Korean American church leans so heavily on keeping women in their rightful spot. And many immigrants who come to the U. S., or I'm not sure about Canada, but newly immigrated Koreans more often than not seek out a Korean church, a Korean American church, and that's where they find community and belonging.
So these young women who grew up in Korea who felt more comfortable in their sexuality, were much more progressive would come and perhaps in a lot of ways suppress that and hide that go along with the didactic teaching of Korean Protestant churches, which is a complex topic that I don't have as much education or knowledge to discuss fully.
But this is just anecdotal experience and what I see. I do write my books hoping to reach the Korean American community, most definitely. I want Korean American people to see themselves in my book, reflected in my book, find things they have in common with it, as well as non-Korean readers to read it and see we have so much more in common than differences. “Oh, okay. Korean Americans are Americans too. I do that.” There's nothing different, other than…I don't want to say superficial, but non essential aspects. It's fun. I like being Korean. It's a lot of fun. I love the food. I love K-pop culture. K-drama, K-pop, all that culture is fun. K-beauty. Everything's K these days. And it's amazing to see the small country I left when I was nine becoming so mainstream.
HK: You know, actually we are thinking about the influence of the church and religion and all these things when we think about the theme of sex for our volume. So I think that actually that makes a lot of sense when you bring in the sort of the expectations from the church around things like purity that sometimes I think gets translated into like cultural expectations that isn't actually a cultural thing, as opposed to maybe like a religious expectation or a societal expectation of like maybe the way that you grew up. And for a lot of us, myself included, having grown up in the church, and I think that really influences the ways that we interact with something like sex, not just in terms of the physical act itself, but just even reading books with like sex scenes and stuff.
So yeah, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about why you write open door sex scenes. And first of all, can you maybe define for people who don't really know what that is, what open door sex scenes are.
JL: Open door sex scenes basically means more explicit sex scenes involving intercourse and orgasms (laughs). Right? It's not like it closes the door as they kiss. It's like the doors flung open and you see them start to finish. So that's what open door sex scenes are. So that is my scholarly definition of that romance lingo. So there is a huge intersection of Korean culture, Korean American culture, and Korean American religious expectations, because like I said, so many Koreans coming to America, or I'm not sure about Canada, but I'm guessing it's very similar, is that people immigrate to the U. S. They're lonely, they feel isolated, so they go to church where every Sunday you get to see other people who look like you, who speak your language, and you have your children who grow up there. What the Korean church brings is, what I'm realizing is, my mom talks about Confucianism and how kind of suffocating that ideology was for a woman growing up in her generation.
But that ideology has been maintained in the Korean church. It's about women being submissive and pure and demure and cutesy, right? (laughs) Mindful. I think that Confucianism has influenced Protestant faith and church culture in America. So it is a double whammy for girls growing up in churches and women living their lives, making their choices.
I do not believe that your personal life has to reflect what you enjoy, and the life that I've led is very conservative and befitting an Asian American Christian woman, right? There's nothing wrong with conservative choices. There's no shame in making the choice to not have multiple sexual partners. There's no requirement for that. The whole point is, it's your choice, right? And the choice should be made because of who you are, what feels right for you, what you want. But oftentimes, those choices are made because of shame, internalized shame that we have to be so pure, blameless, and perfect. And that's toxic.
When I write open door sex scenes, I think it does multiple things, especially since these books are read by younger generations, 18 to 24, or any age. It isn't exclusively for this subset of lonely housewives with no lives. No, these are read by people who know their mind and who know what they want.
Initially, when I started writing Harlequin and Romance, Harlequin Desire, requires open door sex scenes. I had a hard time writing them. I had a mentor who steamed up my scenes and I thought about why is it so hard for me? Is it embarrassment? But I dug deeper and realized it's shame: I shouldn't read these romance novels and enjoy them.
‘That's wrong. That's dirty. Not pure. I shouldn't watch these movies or have watched sex scenes and think, Oh, wow, that's hot. I like it. Because that's not how a woman should be.’ All of those things are toxic and harmful and I want Korean Americans, women in Korean diasporas, to break away from that.
I'm not trying to teach you anything except to share a message about the importance of consent, about sex positivity, about female pleasure, and how none of those choices, or enjoyment, should be hindered by shame. You can make choices because it feels right for you. But you shouldn't choose to not read or watch or enjoy or live your life to hide from that shame.
So my books are getting progressively steamier. My romcoms, the Sweet Mess series, get progressively steamier, but they ultimately are closed door. So with That Prince Is Mine, my latest romcom that came out in July of this year, the doors flung wide open. That's me facing my ingrained, internalized shame and trying to break the bond.
And that if I could get the message across to inspire other women like me, that it is healthy and good to take care of yourself, to stand up for yourself, to speak up for yourself, to respect yourself…I think it's about all of that.
HK: And we're so glad you are doing this work. I will say from personal sort of experience, I also, like you were saying before as well, I also love being Korean. I love reading about fun, sexy romances. So I'm looking forward to reading That Prince Is Mine. So yeah…so much of that resonates, I think especially around the sort of intimacy and the romance and the sex part, I, it would have been so valuable for me as an 18 year old reading romance books to have the kinds of books that you write and that isn't necessarily trying to teach you a lesson about sex. It's just ‘here's a sexy book and it can be fun and it can be a good experience.’
JL: Joy without shame.
HK: Yeah exactly. It speaks to me so much. I will say that for me, again personally, like I didn't have much of a way of sex education, in school or at church, growing up. And I think reading a lot of romance books was a form of education for me. I think, I'm sure, it is for a lot of other people as well. And so I’m wondering if there are certain things that helped you to move through this shame around reading and writing romance that kind of helped you to feel more comfortable in this process.
JL: Yeah, I am owning who I am and not being ashamed and I want others to feel that joy without the shame, right?
HK: Now that you are becoming a lot more comfortable, especially with like you said, That Prince Is Mine is a lot more, the doors are wide open. And so I'm wondering if writing romance novels in this way has changed the way that you talk about romance and sex with people in your life?
JL: The thing is, I have always believed and tried to talk frankly about sex, about how healthy and normal and natural masturbation is, or, I mean, my kids might have two boys and they could ask me anything, and I could talk to them frankly, and I always have.
The shame came in with me being a woman and with me enjoying sex, enjoying reading about sex, writing about sex, watching. So I think it's a very personal and internalized journey. I definitely do not want to instill any kind of shame in my children and I don't want them to have that kind of mindset where they seek purity in a woman.
Oh my gosh, no.
In a lot of ways, you know, what romance authors really hate is when people say, “Wow, you must have a great sex life.” (laughs) So if you write thrillers, you're like, Oh, you must be a fantastic serial killer.
You know, I mean, there's a thing called imagination. We are creative and we create something out of nothing. And sometimes things are just what they are.
My motivation for writing these things are the more personal and authentic, real part of who I am. The scene, what happens in the book necessarily, a prince in disguise falling in love with the royal court cuisine instructor, and then she becomes a princess in a small European country…you know, fantasy.
HK: I mean, for me those are all my favourite things in the book. So I'm like...
JL: So much fun.
HK: Yeah. So much fun. It's meant to be fun. It's meant to be a good time. Yeah, it's kind of funny to hear about how people sort of take these things, something that's meant to be very fun and enjoyable maybe a little bit too seriously.
JL: The people most critical of romance are the ones who have never read romance. They just make assumptions. It's not exclusive to men. There are women with internalized misogyny as well, but I think they're intimidated by women owning their sexuality and their right to seek pleasure and enjoy sex. So they try to shame you.
People or men, white men, have said to my face that I write porn for a living. I doubt they've ever read any romance novels, much less any of mine. But I'm sure they've watched plenty of porn, because that's okay, because they're a man, right? It's all very ridiculous and I am embarrassed for them.
HK: Yeah, I think, I mean, all the power to people who like engage in sex work, whatever that looks like for them. But I think that people, like people who are in that sort of romance world, they get it. It's like a very expansive sort of experience. I think for me, I wouldn't, I would wish that for everyone, in terms of what they read and what they, but just also generally in what they enjoy and in this case specifically what they enjoy sexually.
I guess along the lines of finding something that we enjoy, I wonder if you would be interested in ending the conversation with some fun rapid fire questions.
JL: Absolutely.
HK: We've mentioned a couple of times the two books that came out this summer, Nine Tailed and That Prince Is Mine, so I'm wondering if you could recommend some snack recommendations to people who will be picking up your book.
JL: Well, That Prince Is Mine is a foodie romance. There is a lot of food descriptions in there. They're mostly Korean food, but I would have Korean ramyeon handy when you're reading That Prince Is Mine, or clean out your refrigerator and make bibimbap with your cold rice. That's gonna be one of your cravings.
Nine Tailed talks about a lot of things, too. I didn't realize I wrote about food in there, but my editors were like, "The food, oh my gosh," and I'm like, "Did I write about food?" So, snacks? I don't know. I would prefer alcoholic beverage makgeolli. Nine Tailed has makgeolli in there. There's yakgwa, if you like that. It's harder to get, but nowadays they have pre-made package kinds.
HK: Oh, those are some solid food recommendations. So, from all of the books that you've written, is there one that sticks out to you in terms of if you had the opportunity to, would you turn it into a film? And if you could, who would you cast as your leads?
JL: Gosh, this is hard. Whenever I get asked about casting questions, it's really hard because there aren't a huge number of Korean American or Korean North American, like Korean Canadian, Korean Australian. I know we have to reach far to find Korean actors. A Sweet Mess was auctioned by Daniel Dae Kim. He wanted to produce and star in it, but that was right before the pandemic and the lockdown. But if anyone could make a movie, I think That Prince Is Mine would be really fun, reminiscent of 90s, 2000s, early 2000s, romcom movies, where it's just so sweet and fun. I would probably tone down the heat in the movie version. But the prince, I imagine him as Chris Pine in The Princess Diaries 2. And I think Emma, I have forgotten her name, but I just saw a clip where a Korean Australian actress was cast for Bridgerton 4 . But I think she's beautiful and she'd make a wonderful Emma.
HK: We'll look up the name of the actress and put it in the show notes somewhere.
JL: Oh, I found the name.
HK: Oh yeah, go ahead.
JL: I'm going to pronounce it in Korean. It's Yerin Ha. Ha Yerin. Yeah, so she'd make a great Emma. Put her into the universe, you know, manifest.
HK: You heard it here first, folks.
JL: Yup.
HK: So maybe the next question is, do you have a favourite romance film or TV show or even book that you like, that isn't one of your own, that you could recommend to folks?
JL: So my favourite book is Jane Eyre. My favourite author is Jane Austen. I've read Pride and Prejudice like 20 times, and watched the BBC version and the Keira Knightley movie version multiple times. And those are my comfort watches. And if I ever feel overwhelmed with life and I need something, a surefire fix to keep me afloat, those are the shows that I turn to.
HK: Nice. I will say that 2005 movie version of Pride and Prejudice is also a personal fave of mine. So beautifully done. It's very romantic.
JL: It is. It is. The hand clench is like the thing.
HK: Yeah, exactly. So, last question. Imagine you're hosting a literary dinner party and you can only serve one of your books as the main course. What's on the menu?
JL: Nine Tailed. Nine Tailed is the book of my heart and I am really proud of it. That's not easy to say for a Korean American, right? self-effacing, and oh, it's okay. No, no. It's fantastic, guys. And I want everyone to read it.
HK: Well, I think a good last note to end on, so everyone go check out Jayci's books, we'll link everything again in our show notes, and be sure to read Nine Tails, or Nine Tailed, sorry.
HK: Wow, that's quite a short timeframe to be writing a book so I'm very impressed. Before I ask you the next question, I really quickly want to ask, do you remember what the first book you read at 13 was?
JL: I have no idea. I remember snippets of this book and that book, but I was literally just consuming these books. I went to the local library and I think there was a 10 book limit for paperback. I would literally borrow 10 books in the swim bag I had every Saturday. I'd go and fill it up and go through them all. Next week, another 10 books, go through them all. I don't remember the title or even the exact story, but I was just devouring those books.
And I just wanted to fess up. I wrote those two books very quickly, right? But I spent over two years rewriting and revising and polishing them. So it wasn't until two years later that I was offered a contract. I signed with an agent. So all of that took a little longer, especially since I was working full time again. The rewrite, of course, just happened in snippets, lunchtime. You know, half an hour after the kids went to sleep things like that. But it just takes you however long it takes you to write a book.
HK: That's fair. Also very fair that you don't remember the book, but when you were 13, I just love hearing about these sort of romance novels, like origin stories almost.
Yeah, going back to your books and maybe making that transition from legal writing. to romance writing, and like you were saying, you were doing that at the same time, it sounds like?
JL: Yes.
HK: What was that transition like for you?
JL: It was a little bit of a back and forth, but like you said, I guess it uses different parts of the brain, so it's not like there was much overlap.
Novel writing is completely different from legal writing. I was a litigator, so I wrote motions, which were mainly persuasive legal documents, convincing the court that our side is right, their side is wrong. And then, as for romance, because I was such an avid reader, I think I knew how to tell a story, and it really is knowing all the nuances of storytelling and how to unfold it that's different.
Legal writing is very structured, but fiction is definitely more creative. There are things that are necessary: character arc, plot for a romance. There's the meet cute, there's a thing called “black moment” near the end and then a grand gesture. There are reader expectations out of a romance novel, but other than that, it's really your voice and your style that guides a fiction or romance novel.
HK: Like you were saying, there were a lot of parts that are just expected with a novel generally and then also maybe like reader expectations of what comes with a romance novel so do you find that they're like writing between the different genres within romance is similar? I wonder with maybe the fantasy romance, was there research that you might have done to figure out, oh this is what is part of a fantasy book that you had to do in order to write like these different genres within romance.
JL: I didn't really read many craft books about writing or storytelling in general. When I just started writing romance, I did get this book called Romancing the Beat, and it's a very straightforward checklist to know that you are hitting the right notes at the right times in your story. But I think, like I said, because I'm an avid reader, I kind of had internalized all those beats already.
And I think the same goes for fantasy writing. So Nine Tailed is a part of a trilogy, a planned trilogy. So the romance within it, the story within it, all of it continues through three books. So the ebb and flow of the character arc, the romance, the fantasy, the mystery, all of it is definitely different from a romcom or contemporary romance.
But no, I did not research or learn different craft or read different craft books about how to write a fantasy novel, how to build a world. I think my best education has been reading other fantasy romance…so many that I have internalized what or how these stories should be told.
HK: Yeah, I think people who love romance novels, really love romance novels, so they know.. kind of, I mean, I include myself in this, and that you kind of know what you like and what pacing to expect, you kind of know when you're really in it.
JL: Yes.
HK: But I think people who are in it, those expectations of what you want from a book are very different from people who are maybe on the outside and aren't really into romance as much. So like you were saying, when you started writing romance, you had a three book contract with Harlequin Romance, which has a very specific connotation to, I think, for a lot of people who are avid readers of romance and people who are not.
It's, of course, a very big institution within…not just romance novels, but just like publishing in general and I think for me, personally, I've noticed that the romance landscape, if you will, is changing even within the last 10 years or so.
JL: Yeah, so rapidly.
HK: Yeah, and I think that there is, I mean, whether or not it's still the case or not I think at one point there was this expectation of trilogies like Fifty Shades of Grey or Bodice Ripper Romances, and the expectation is that, oh, these are very geared towards suburban moms who “don't have anything better to do”, and I think there is that stereotype for a lot of people, and I'm curious if as someone who's both a reader and a writer of romance novels, if you've noticed any trends or shifts over the years in terms of expectations or perceptions around romance novels.
JL: Okay, so Fifty Shades of Grey is erotica, a completely different sub genre. Harlequin is category romance, where reader expectations are very specific, and there is definitely a word count limit, so you have to get to the point, stay on the point, and get the story in there while giving readers all the different feels that they expect from Harlequin.
But Harlequin, definitely when it was a subscription based company publisher, I think the market was geared towards Midwestern stay-at-home moms, whatnot. And I did have that perception before I started writing romance, because I backed away from reading romance because I didn't have time. And In that time, Harlequin and the romance genre has been growing and I had a lot of catching up to do when I came back into that world.
And I have only been published for four years. I debuted in 2020 and the landscape in the last four years is completely different. It's mind boggling and unsettling and we just have to stay flexible, stay afloat. It's pretty scary.
HK: Admittedly, sometimes I use the word "romance" very loosely when talking about the book genre and will use it interchangeably for some of the different subsets of the romance genre so that can sometimes mean everything from Jane Austen to Fifty Shades of Grey, which are, of course, two very different aspects of the romance book genre.
And I think the assumptions and perceptions and expectations around intimacy and love and sex, as it pertains to those types of books, is very different in a lot of ways I think it's very gendered, or at least it has been in my experience. in some ways, that has been Good for me, especially when I first started reading something like erotica romance at 18. It was a lot of fun in large part because it was this safe place bubble with other sorts of young women around my age that, you know, really allowed for that exploration and that fun.
As I've gotten older, I've really appreciated and continue to appreciate the generational difference that someone who is 18 years old now in 2024 brings. And yeah, I think the changes also are reflected in the publishing landscape and that includes a lot more Korean American stories that are being published generally.
And specifically for our conversation, you are one of the few, if not only, Korean Americans romance novels with Korean leads that also include very explicit sex scenes. I think this is important for a lot of reasons, especially for us diasporic Koreans who often consume Korean content from Korea. Not to say that these are necessarily comparable things. Of course, Korean entertainment is fun and at a whole other level with world building. Again, I don't bring this up to necessarily compare apples to oranges, but I just bring it up because there is a difference in the way that we see something like sexual tension be played out in the storytelling, at least in the mainstream content that we're getting. While your books may not necessarily be specifically targeting a Korean American audience, it does feel like you're speaking to a certain Korean American or American sensibility that doesn't feel like it really exists yet in the formal sort of traditional process of publishing.
JL: So I will address the first one in terms of romance being gendered, and that's one of the main things that have changed.
The LGBTQ community is definitely a strong voice in the romance community, and romance is not just for women anymore for sure. It remains a safe space read by progressive feminist women, as well as all other genders, and it's growing, as it should be. Romance and Happily Ever After shouldn't be reserved solely for women.
We could also touch upon the K-drama, which is also very widely consumed. And my books being about Korean Americans and my message being sex positivity, strong women knowing what they want and expressing what they want and embracing female pleasure. All of that, I believe it should be part of any culture and sensibility.
I do believe that Korean culture has evolved along with the times, whereas the Korean diaspora remained stagnant, perhaps in the 70s. So the sensibilities are much more old fashioned and kind of left behind the times, because I have seen K-dramas that do not necessarily like open door sex scenes, but imply that characters have had sex and do not make a big deal out of it.
So I don't think purity culture is as emphasized in Korean culture as much as it is in Korean American culture. And I think that has to do with how the Korean American church leans so heavily on keeping women in their rightful spot. And many immigrants who come to the U. S., or I'm not sure about Canada, but newly immigrated Koreans more often than not seek out a Korean church, a Korean American church, and that's where they find community and belonging.
So these young women who grew up in Korea who felt more comfortable in their sexuality, were much more progressive would come and perhaps in a lot of ways suppress that and hide that go along with the didactic teaching of Korean Protestant churches, which is a complex topic that I don't have as much education or knowledge to discuss fully.
But this is just anecdotal experience and what I see. I do write my books hoping to reach the Korean American community, most definitely. I want Korean American people to see themselves in my book, reflected in my book, find things they have in common with it, as well as non-Korean readers to read it and see we have so much more in common than differences. “Oh, okay. Korean Americans are Americans too. I do that.” There's nothing different, other than…I don't want to say superficial, but non essential aspects. It's fun. I like being Korean. It's a lot of fun. I love the food. I love K-pop culture. K-drama, K-pop, all that culture is fun. K-beauty. Everything's K these days. And it's amazing to see the small country I left when I was nine becoming so mainstream.
HK: You know, actually we are thinking about the influence of the church and religion and all these things when we think about the theme of sex for our volume. So I think that actually that makes a lot of sense when you bring in the sort of the expectations from the church around things like purity that sometimes I think gets translated into like cultural expectations that isn't actually a cultural thing, as opposed to maybe like a religious expectation or a societal expectation of like maybe the way that you grew up. And for a lot of us, myself included, having grown up in the church, and I think that really influences the ways that we interact with something like sex, not just in terms of the physical act itself, but just even reading books with like sex scenes and stuff.
So yeah, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about why you write open door sex scenes. And first of all, can you maybe define for people who don't really know what that is, what open door sex scenes are.
JL: Open door sex scenes basically means more explicit sex scenes involving intercourse and orgasms (laughs). Right? It's not like it closes the door as they kiss. It's like the doors flung open and you see them start to finish. So that's what open door sex scenes are. So that is my scholarly definition of that romance lingo. So there is a huge intersection of Korean culture, Korean American culture, and Korean American religious expectations, because like I said, so many Koreans coming to America, or I'm not sure about Canada, but I'm guessing it's very similar, is that people immigrate to the U. S. They're lonely, they feel isolated, so they go to church where every Sunday you get to see other people who look like you, who speak your language, and you have your children who grow up there. What the Korean church brings is, what I'm realizing is, my mom talks about Confucianism and how kind of suffocating that ideology was for a woman growing up in her generation.
But that ideology has been maintained in the Korean church. It's about women being submissive and pure and demure and cutesy, right? (laughs) Mindful. I think that Confucianism has influenced Protestant faith and church culture in America. So it is a double whammy for girls growing up in churches and women living their lives, making their choices.
I do not believe that your personal life has to reflect what you enjoy, and the life that I've led is very conservative and befitting an Asian American Christian woman, right? There's nothing wrong with conservative choices. There's no shame in making the choice to not have multiple sexual partners. There's no requirement for that. The whole point is, it's your choice, right? And the choice should be made because of who you are, what feels right for you, what you want. But oftentimes, those choices are made because of shame, internalized shame that we have to be so pure, blameless, and perfect. And that's toxic.
When I write open door sex scenes, I think it does multiple things, especially since these books are read by younger generations, 18 to 24, or any age. It isn't exclusively for this subset of lonely housewives with no lives. No, these are read by people who know their mind and who know what they want.
Initially, when I started writing Harlequin and Romance, Harlequin Desire, requires open door sex scenes. I had a hard time writing them. I had a mentor who steamed up my scenes and I thought about why is it so hard for me? Is it embarrassment? But I dug deeper and realized it's shame: I shouldn't read these romance novels and enjoy them.
‘That's wrong. That's dirty. Not pure. I shouldn't watch these movies or have watched sex scenes and think, Oh, wow, that's hot. I like it. Because that's not how a woman should be.’ All of those things are toxic and harmful and I want Korean Americans, women in Korean diasporas, to break away from that.
I'm not trying to teach you anything except to share a message about the importance of consent, about sex positivity, about female pleasure, and how none of those choices, or enjoyment, should be hindered by shame. You can make choices because it feels right for you. But you shouldn't choose to not read or watch or enjoy or live your life to hide from that shame.
So my books are getting progressively steamier. My romcoms, the Sweet Mess series, get progressively steamier, but they ultimately are closed door. So with That Prince Is Mine, my latest romcom that came out in July of this year, the doors flung wide open. That's me facing my ingrained, internalized shame and trying to break the bond.
And that if I could get the message across to inspire other women like me, that it is healthy and good to take care of yourself, to stand up for yourself, to speak up for yourself, to respect yourself…I think it's about all of that.
HK: And we're so glad you are doing this work. I will say from personal sort of experience, I also, like you were saying before as well, I also love being Korean. I love reading about fun, sexy romances. So I'm looking forward to reading That Prince Is Mine. So yeah…so much of that resonates, I think especially around the sort of intimacy and the romance and the sex part, I, it would have been so valuable for me as an 18 year old reading romance books to have the kinds of books that you write and that isn't necessarily trying to teach you a lesson about sex. It's just ‘here's a sexy book and it can be fun and it can be a good experience.’
JL: Joy without shame.
HK: Yeah exactly. It speaks to me so much. I will say that for me, again personally, like I didn't have much of a way of sex education, in school or at church, growing up. And I think reading a lot of romance books was a form of education for me. I think, I'm sure, it is for a lot of other people as well. And so I’m wondering if there are certain things that helped you to move through this shame around reading and writing romance that kind of helped you to feel more comfortable in this process.
JL: Yeah, I am owning who I am and not being ashamed and I want others to feel that joy without the shame, right?
HK: Now that you are becoming a lot more comfortable, especially with like you said, That Prince Is Mine is a lot more, the doors are wide open. And so I'm wondering if writing romance novels in this way has changed the way that you talk about romance and sex with people in your life?
JL: The thing is, I have always believed and tried to talk frankly about sex, about how healthy and normal and natural masturbation is, or, I mean, my kids might have two boys and they could ask me anything, and I could talk to them frankly, and I always have.
The shame came in with me being a woman and with me enjoying sex, enjoying reading about sex, writing about sex, watching. So I think it's a very personal and internalized journey. I definitely do not want to instill any kind of shame in my children and I don't want them to have that kind of mindset where they seek purity in a woman.
Oh my gosh, no.
In a lot of ways, you know, what romance authors really hate is when people say, “Wow, you must have a great sex life.” (laughs) So if you write thrillers, you're like, Oh, you must be a fantastic serial killer.
You know, I mean, there's a thing called imagination. We are creative and we create something out of nothing. And sometimes things are just what they are.
My motivation for writing these things are the more personal and authentic, real part of who I am. The scene, what happens in the book necessarily, a prince in disguise falling in love with the royal court cuisine instructor, and then she becomes a princess in a small European country…you know, fantasy.
HK: I mean, for me those are all my favourite things in the book. So I'm like...
JL: So much fun.
HK: Yeah. So much fun. It's meant to be fun. It's meant to be a good time. Yeah, it's kind of funny to hear about how people sort of take these things, something that's meant to be very fun and enjoyable maybe a little bit too seriously.
JL: The people most critical of romance are the ones who have never read romance. They just make assumptions. It's not exclusive to men. There are women with internalized misogyny as well, but I think they're intimidated by women owning their sexuality and their right to seek pleasure and enjoy sex. So they try to shame you.
People or men, white men, have said to my face that I write porn for a living. I doubt they've ever read any romance novels, much less any of mine. But I'm sure they've watched plenty of porn, because that's okay, because they're a man, right? It's all very ridiculous and I am embarrassed for them.
HK: Yeah, I think, I mean, all the power to people who like engage in sex work, whatever that looks like for them. But I think that people, like people who are in that sort of romance world, they get it. It's like a very expansive sort of experience. I think for me, I wouldn't, I would wish that for everyone, in terms of what they read and what they, but just also generally in what they enjoy and in this case specifically what they enjoy sexually.
I guess along the lines of finding something that we enjoy, I wonder if you would be interested in ending the conversation with some fun rapid fire questions.
JL: Absolutely.
HK: We've mentioned a couple of times the two books that came out this summer, Nine Tailed and That Prince Is Mine, so I'm wondering if you could recommend some snack recommendations to people who will be picking up your book.
JL: Well, That Prince Is Mine is a foodie romance. There is a lot of food descriptions in there. They're mostly Korean food, but I would have Korean ramyeon handy when you're reading That Prince Is Mine, or clean out your refrigerator and make bibimbap with your cold rice. That's gonna be one of your cravings.
Nine Tailed talks about a lot of things, too. I didn't realize I wrote about food in there, but my editors were like, "The food, oh my gosh," and I'm like, "Did I write about food?" So, snacks? I don't know. I would prefer alcoholic beverage makgeolli. Nine Tailed has makgeolli in there. There's yakgwa, if you like that. It's harder to get, but nowadays they have pre-made package kinds.
HK: Oh, those are some solid food recommendations. So, from all of the books that you've written, is there one that sticks out to you in terms of if you had the opportunity to, would you turn it into a film? And if you could, who would you cast as your leads?
JL: Gosh, this is hard. Whenever I get asked about casting questions, it's really hard because there aren't a huge number of Korean American or Korean North American, like Korean Canadian, Korean Australian. I know we have to reach far to find Korean actors. A Sweet Mess was auctioned by Daniel Dae Kim. He wanted to produce and star in it, but that was right before the pandemic and the lockdown. But if anyone could make a movie, I think That Prince Is Mine would be really fun, reminiscent of 90s, 2000s, early 2000s, romcom movies, where it's just so sweet and fun. I would probably tone down the heat in the movie version. But the prince, I imagine him as Chris Pine in The Princess Diaries 2. And I think Emma, I have forgotten her name, but I just saw a clip where a Korean Australian actress was cast for Bridgerton 4 . But I think she's beautiful and she'd make a wonderful Emma.
HK: We'll look up the name of the actress and put it in the show notes somewhere.
JL: Oh, I found the name.
HK: Oh yeah, go ahead.
JL: I'm going to pronounce it in Korean. It's Yerin Ha. Ha Yerin. Yeah, so she'd make a great Emma. Put her into the universe, you know, manifest.
HK: You heard it here first, folks.
JL: Yup.
HK: So maybe the next question is, do you have a favourite romance film or TV show or even book that you like, that isn't one of your own, that you could recommend to folks?
JL: So my favourite book is Jane Eyre. My favourite author is Jane Austen. I've read Pride and Prejudice like 20 times, and watched the BBC version and the Keira Knightley movie version multiple times. And those are my comfort watches. And if I ever feel overwhelmed with life and I need something, a surefire fix to keep me afloat, those are the shows that I turn to.
HK: Nice. I will say that 2005 movie version of Pride and Prejudice is also a personal fave of mine. So beautifully done. It's very romantic.
JL: It is. It is. The hand clench is like the thing.
HK: Yeah, exactly. So, last question. Imagine you're hosting a literary dinner party and you can only serve one of your books as the main course. What's on the menu?
JL: Nine Tailed. Nine Tailed is the book of my heart and I am really proud of it. That's not easy to say for a Korean American, right? self-effacing, and oh, it's okay. No, no. It's fantastic, guys. And I want everyone to read it.
HK: Well, I think a good last note to end on, so everyone go check out Jayci's books, we'll link everything again in our show notes, and be sure to read Nine Tails, or Nine Tailed, sorry.
Jayci Lee writes poignant, sexy, and laugh-out-loud romance featuring Korean American main characters. Her books have been in O, The Oprah Magazine, Cosmopolitan, Entertainment Weekly, Hollywood Reporter, E! News, and Women’s World. Jayci is retired from her fifteen-year career as a litigator because of all the badass heroines and drool worthy heroes demanding to have their stories told. Food, wine and travel are her jam. She makes her home in sunny California with her tall-dark-and-handsome husband, two amazing boys, and a fluffy rescue. | Website: jaycilee.com, IG @authorjaycilee
Audio Editor:
Frances Kim is an emerging filmmaker (writer, director, editor) and an independent growth marketing consultant. She is based in Toronto, Canada. | Youtube: @FrancesKimFilm, Bluesky @franceskim.bsky.social
Frances Kim is an emerging filmmaker (writer, director, editor) and an independent growth marketing consultant. She is based in Toronto, Canada. | Youtube: @FrancesKimFilm, Bluesky @franceskim.bsky.social
